It's a 9 mate

masofdas wrote:

...but hey if they want have more hair's on the bollocks of a Great Jaggi more power to them.

I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion.

I should probably have a go.

Skyrim - fewer dragons! Really. They're supposed to be the amazing thing.
Yoshi's Island - I love the treasure hunt aspect, but I wish getting Mario through (mostly) unscathed wasn't one.
Dark Souls - incoming controversy in 3... 2... 1... the Ornstein and Smough fight is too much of a difficulty spike. I know the game is supposed to be hard, and I do loves it, but I think any other game would've described that as clunky design. There. I said it.
Falout 4 - with limited game development skills I do understand the difficulty in juggling level geometry in the PS4 era, but the settlement building was disappointing in that you could clear some rubble and detritus, but had to build round a lot of other bits. If you're trying to improve morale. maybe tidy the fuck up. Also the random settlers should've had specific names.

Jimbob wrote:

Dark Souls - incoming controversy in 3... 2... 1... the Ornstein and Smough fight is too much of a difficulty spike. I know the game is supposed to be hard, and I do loves it, but I think any other game would've described that as clunky design. There. I said it.

Falout 4 - with limited game development skills I do understand the difficulty in juggling level geometry in the PS4 era, but the settlement building was disappointing in that you could clear some rubble and detritus, but had to build round a lot of other bits. If you're trying to improve morale. maybe tidy the fuck up. Also the random settlers should've had specific names.

Having replayed Dark Souls reasonably recently... I actually agree! Somehow I breezed past that first on my first go when I played it on PC, but it kicked the arse out of me on PS3. I'd point the finger more at the broken mess that is Lost Izalith though for that game dropping a point - those giant no-leg copy paste dinosaurs are just... bad.

As for FO4, I think they tipped the dial too far from RPG to FPS and lost some of the silliness and character building that Obsidian did so well with FO:NV. Basically, give Obsidian FO4's engine and we're laughing.

JayMoyles wrote:

Jimbob wrote:

Dark Souls - incoming controversy in 3... 2... 1... the Ornstein and Smough fight is too much of a difficulty spike. I know the game is supposed to be hard, and I do loves it, but I think any other game would've described that as clunky design. There. I said it.

Falout 4 - with limited game development skills I do understand the difficulty in juggling level geometry in the PS4 era, but the settlement building was disappointing in that you could clear some rubble and detritus, but had to build round a lot of other bits. If you're trying to improve morale. maybe tidy the fuck up. Also the random settlers should've had specific names.

Having replayed Dark Souls reasonably recently... I actually agree! Somehow I breezed past that first on my first go when I played it on PC, but it kicked the arse out of me on PS3. I'd point the finger more at the broken mess that is Lost Izalith though for that game dropping a point - those giant no-leg copy paste dinosaurs are just... bad.

As for FO4, I think they tipped the dial too far from RPG to FPS and lost some of the silliness and character building that Obsidian did so well with FO:NV. Basically, give Obsidian FO4's engine and we're laughing.

Not sure I can quite agree on O&S being too hard as it can be approached in many different, I had way more trouble with the 4 Kings .

On a first run though, it's a brick wall. If you're not practised at the game, it's a massive difficulty spike considering the bosses leading up to O+S have been challenging but ultimately fair. O+S feels overwhelming without a summon. There's a reason they're as infamous as they are.

I see O&S as more or less the final challenge. After them, the game becomes a power trip.

I struggled against them initially, needing Solaire's help. Since playing 2 & 3, I find them a breeze solo now.

Drunkalilly wrote:

I see O&S as more or less the final challenge. After them, the game becomes a power trip.

But they're halfway through the game though

Celeste - Get rid of the bits with strong wind. Or the escort mission in the level after. Either/or would have this game getting 10/10 status from me, I think.

Jimbob wrote:

But they're halfway through the game though

Which made the rest of the game so satisfying. After being the lowest of the low, hearing about this world of the gods, the second half of the game is about laying low those gods, dispelling the myth that they were any better than mortal man. Hence the thematic satisfaction and pathos of the easy and pathetic final boss.

masofdas wrote:

A hard question as I personally wouldn't give a 10/10 and I instantly thought how I would fix a 7/10 which Cappa brought up but I've talked enough about that one.

I said I wasn't going to do it but it is the one-year anniversary of a game I own twice as part of a nearly 40 game strong collection that I really do think is pants and that 7/10 might have been generous.

I'm going to improve The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild:

1) Get rid of the Shrines - Much like Mario Odyessy I think we had so many due to the Switch being taken on the go but I found them naff and they all have the same aesthetic as well.

2) Get rid of weapons that break - This is dumb, a sword doesn't suddenly break after 2 hits and I get the argument it makes you use other gear but you'd still have a sword, bow, spear etc to switch between and you'd find better ones during the game like you do with the armour and in other RPGs.

3) Bring back dungeons - yeah shrines have gone but instead, I'd have dungeons come back, you can still have divine beasts and after let's say 2 dungeons you can then tackle a beast after collecting something.

4) Bring back items - this goes into number 3 as you could get two items like a hookshot and iron boots to get past a beast.

5) Traditional Zelda Elements - Where's the Triforce, I didn't even get the master sword that should be part of the plot etc

6) Story - The Zelda series has never had the best story but I've always had a reason to care but I had zero in BotW which to me is due to the worst Princess Zelda in history (yeah worse than the CDi Zelda) and Ganon being nonexistent till the end along with any story elements being the memories which you have to go find.

7) Bosses - I fought maybe 6 and part from the one, they all much like shrines had the same aesthetic. They were just boring and if dungeons came back you'd have some actual bosses to take on and maybe they can have different aesthetic like the boss in the water dungeon would be water themed.

The Characters - I've already spoken about Zelda and Ganon, the other main ones were fine but they were just fine and none are memorable like Tetra, Groose, Midna etc

9) The world is empty - I know people say Hyrule field is empty in Twilight Princess but you had things to go to, in BotW it has the 4 locations and that it. Least Skyward Sword you go back to them.

10) I want the option to play as Link or Linkle

mas wrote:

5) Traditional Zelda Elements - Where's the Triforce, I didn't even get the master sword that should be part of the plot etc

With that bit in bold alone you really have missed out on a fun and sizable chunk of the game in my opinion - there's also clues everywhere for the master Sword so I'm surprised you missed it. It also might have semi fixed the weapon breaking mechanic for you as even though it does have to recharge energy it's durability is way higher than the other weapons.

It's not part of the "story" in BotW meaning I didn't do it as I didn't like playing the game that just doing all the beasts and taking down Ganon was enough for me.

If it wasn't a Zelda game then I wouldn't have bothered finishing it (why it's so overrated as well) and wouldn't be in my collection still. And that's really I can say I've beat OoT, Wind Waker, Twilight, Skyward and BotW.

I really should think about finishing Majora.

Funny that you bring up Majora's mask, I didn't enjoy that game too much myself so it remains the only Zelda game I haven't beaten but I wouldn't say it's bad or overrated either just not for me.

masofdas wrote:

5) Traditional Zelda Elements - Where's the Triforce, I didn't even get the master sword that should be part of the plot etc

masofdas wrote:

I really should think about finishing Majora.

I mean, I can comment on most of your quibbles (not the first one so much, matter of opinion, less time spent exploring the world, this Zelda's more about using the items you have in interesting ways, it's as much part of the plot as the DBs, much better than OoT Zelda for starters, okay yeah fair enough, you're in the minority on Sidon mate, that's the beauty of it, I'll take the last point in the spirit in which I feel it's meant)... but to pick up on MM of all games in the same post you respond to a comment on that? MM doesn't have the Triforce, and I don't think it has the Master Sword either. Odd choice.

I do like Sidon and he was the best thing about the game.

I think MM gets away with it as its a sequel and not in Hyrule but maybe that's why I've not finished, I may put it on the list of games on last gen & retro to play at some point.

I don't really want to go into too much more Zelda patter but I will say this.

I think Nintendo missed an opportunity with the weapon break system. It didn't really bother me, but clearly annoyed a fair chunk of people. With that in mind, they could have patched the game to include optional settings for weapon durability - something like classic, extra durable, indestructible. I appreciate that what Nintendo put out was their vision, I really do. I just feel that in an age of patches and Internet hissy fits there might have been something to Nintendo showing they are capable of hearing online feedback and patching in an extra option.

That being said, when it comes to online games like Arms or Splatwoots, Nintendo have shown they're on the ball with that sort of thing.

Maybe this is just my bald head talking, but I have more respect for Nintendo saying "Nah, fuck you, this is our game" and leaving the system as it is.

As somebody who supported the idea of easy modes in all games, I'd have been up for Muss' idea. I do feel it's become a rather mountainous molehill in discussions about the game though. I never ran out of shields, weapons (of any type really), or bows. Occasionally I felt the pressure of being low on supplies, but it never actually hit.

masofdas wrote:

2) Get rid of weapons that break - This is dumb, a sword doesn't suddenly break after 2 hits and I get the argument it makes you use other gear but you'd still have a sword, bow, spear etc to switch between and you'd find better ones during the game like you do with the armour and in other RPGs.

I do agree that weapons breaking is a bit annoying (it's the only thing you score points on in that list, mind ). If I was going to be the aaaaaaaaaaaaactuallly guy: in real life, swords don't break, but history has documented that they are pretty useless after a couple of big stabs, and need to be re-sharpened.

Yeah that makes sense and MonHan has the mechanic, it was one of the many things as you see I found not to me liking with BotW and hope the next Zelda has, as the game looks great and the actual gameplay is just everything else isn't enjoyable and I didn't care for that world.

Basically give me Twilight Princess with the gameplay of BotW and art-style.

Despite loving BotW very very much - yes. I'd happily have that for the next Zelda game. I hope they don't abandon the traditional Zelda style as a result.

Some more traditional style dungeons would be nice but I hope they keep the freedom of exploration in the next one as well, basically mash up ALBW and BotW and I'd be very very happy. I wouldn't have dungeon items returning though because in BotW they already proved they can not only create clever puzzle mechanics without them but puzzles that can be solved in many different ways.

I'd like to see dungeon items return. I like having puzzles, and especially bosses, structured around them; and they feel like appropriate reward for overcoming half the dungeon's traps. None of the Divine Beasts were as good as TP's dungeons, with the Spinner and Clawshots in particular adding extra levels to those dungeons after unlocking.

I honestly think I'd struggle seeing the franchise go backwards after botw.  Having the game be so open in how the player could tackle it was such a refreshing take, things like dungeon items are cool, but they also mean a return to the old "every puzzle only has a single solution" design of 3d Zelda's past.  

I wouldn't mind seeing some extra side content that hearkened back to that style (complete with the unique items), but going forward I very much hope they stick to the open approach of puzzles they've got now, which was only really possible because they didn't key every dungeon to a specific item from said dungeon.

Honestly the only flaw I had was the bosses themselves, which were all more mid-boss type encounters as opposed to feeling like actual bosses (mostly.  I'd be lying if I said Thunderblight Ganon wasn't a right bastard to take down the first time).  Otherwise I liked the Divine Beasts a lot more than most dungeons (the best dungeons excluded of course.  Much as I like the Divine Beasts I'd be lying if I said they were an equal for things like Stone Tower Temple in majoras mask or City in the Sky in twilight princess).

But if anything that's another argument for a half'n'half approach.  That way they can focus on making the few dungeons they have the same calibre as the franchise best without feeling forced into making ones that feel like chores to finish.

Oh, forgot to mention simply being given bombs and arrows off the bat instead of having yet another dungeon built around them as the unlockable item was great and a much needed step in the right direction. Dungeons revolving around items are one thing, but repeating the concept for items that have been in darn near every Zelda gets tiring.

I'd put points 5 and 6 as contradictions, traditional Zelda elements are usually what made the story so stale for me and why I enjoyed the story in this much more, a lot of the story telling is done outside of cutscenes, just have to pay attention to it. Traditional Zelda elements are what ruined the Twilight Princess story towards the end so I don't miss all that.

The whole weapon breaking thing I always found fine as I made sure I had enough in supply and mixed up my battling so it never became an issue.

Would however have liked dungeons to return, only for a change of pace now and then, divine beasts were good they just felt too few and far between, wouldn't have removed shrines at their expense though, keep them both I say.