January-March 2018 Quarterly Review: Admintendo XXI - The Key Of The Door

ZeroJones: Step up, step up! Come one, come all! It's time to being Admintendo... er... XXI, is it now? Blimey. With me, as ever, is my admin-in-arms, Mr. Jayseph 'Edgeworth' Moyles! Say 'Hi' to the nice ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jay!

JayMoyles: Hi everybody! I feel like Dr. Nick Riviera now.

ZeroJones: As long as your degree is more legit, I think we're OK!

JayMoyles: They tell me that it's a real degree.

How The Forum And Gaming Began 2018

ZeroJones: I should hope so too! Today we're covering the first few months of Space Year Twenty Eighteen in Nintendo Land (hmmm). What have been your favourite forum fings (er) from this last quarter, Jay?

JayMoyles: Well, as much as some of our fine forumites have cooled off on the format, I still enjoy a good voting thread so I'd be remiss to not to mention the Forum Awards and Balla's brilliantly constructed Switch Year One vote thread... even if the results were not what I was looking for in the latter!

Beyond that, with the announcement of a new Smash Bros. game on its way I've liked speculating and theorycrafting on what (or who, even!) will turn up in the new Smash game with the rest of the gang. There's nothing like Smash Bros. for making even the quietest of us turn into fervent fanboys once again.

ZeroJones: Agreed on the Switch Vote, which was a great thread with a surprising conclusion. Hopefully by the time the next Switch vote rolls around I'll have played Zelda and seen what all this fuss is about!

JayMoyles: I'm still stunned that you didn't jump on it right away after getting your Switch! Dubious game choices on Switch aside, what have your forum highlights been over the last few months, Zero?

ZeroJones: How rude! To be honest, I've most enjoyed seeing the Switch forum fill with threads of all shapes and sizes. There are nearly 10,000 posts in there now which, for a machine that's only been out there for just over a year, is immense. Thinking of questions for If... is also fun for me.

JayMoyles: That's a huge albeit not surprising number of posts. A testament to why the Switch forum picked up Forum of the Year, I suppose. If... is a cracking thread and a favourite of mine to partake in too. Props, good sir.

ZeroJones: Why, thank you! My compliment fishing plan worked perfec-I mean, let's move on to the games of the last quarter! What tickled your video gaming fancy these past three months, Sire?

JayMoyles: The biggest title over the last few months has to be Monster Hunter World for me. After getting over my initial disappointment about the game not heading Switchwards, I grew steadily more excited for it over the last year and thankfully it's provided well over a hundred hours of fun so far. The changes implemented are exactly what I wanted to see from a console Monster Hunter game. I suppose my only gripe about it is getting used to a change in the end-game as there's not as much as in previous titles due to the fact that the West usually receives the "Ultimate" versions stuffed full with content. They're feeding us content steadily in a Splatoonesque model though, so there's still plenty to do.

I've also enjoyed a bit of Bayonetta which was hectic, madcap and most importantly a lot of fun. I'm stunned I never got around to this back at its time of release originally, but better late than never! And lastly, I've embarked on my Grand Final Fantasy Journey (trademarked) to play as much of the Final Fantasy series as I can. So far, I've sampled a lot of the free iOS offerings and I'm about 75% through the original Final Fantasy, although I'm playing an updated and definitive PSP port. It's good, but it's definitely an old RPG full of all the annoying trappings of the genre. I'm salivating at the quality of life changes I know are coming in later instalments of the series.

JayMoyles: (phew!)

ZeroJones: I'm glad you've got a lot out of MHW and that there's more to come; hopefully a Switch Monster Hunter will be announced before too long, though I gather we would be nuts to expect World on Nintendo's little hybrid that could?

JayMoyles: I think so as in this instance I don't think the Switch could handle MHW sadly, at least not in its current form. I think they'd have to strip too much away to port it across. What I do think is much more likely - and I'm sure Drunka has speculated as such too - is that we'll continue to see a Monster Hunter Portable series popping up on Switch. The demand for MonHan on Nintendo is too great to ignore.

ZeroJones: And rightly so! If a Switch Monster Hunter comes to the West, I pledge here and now that I will buy it on Day One. You heard it here first!

I'm also pleased to see you playing both Bayonetta and Final Fantasy! How many FF's have you got lined up?

JayMoyles: That's another GNamer Admintendo exclusive news scoop for you!

I think I'm set up to play nearly all the numbered entries with little fuss. The PSP should get me easy access to 1 through 9 (minus 3, that'll be on 3DS), I already own X on PS4 along with XII and XV and I've got a copy of XIII on PS3 somewhere. I won't be touching the MMOs in all likelihood - it's the spin-offs that'll be trickier, but I'm not even thinking about them yet! I'm insane for even attempting this but it's going to be a helluva journey.

ZeroJones: It certainly is, and I wish you good luck and good skill! As for my own gaming quarter, it's been dominated by a certain game which I believe we'll be talking about a lot in this Skypecast.

Anyway, January started off with me finishing off the lovely L.A. Noire, a very fine piece of software. That left me with no cart game for the Switch, so I went back a generation to finish off The Wonderful 101 (not quite so wonderful) and Arkham Origins on the Wii U. They got traded in for Batman: The Telltale Series on Switch, allowing me to Batarang back to the most modern Nintendo console with aplomb. Played that one almost entirely in handheld mode, dontchaknow - there was no real reason to put it on the big screen, I felt. Also around the same time...

CELESTE. This little downloadable game was quite costly, in two different ways: it was £20, which is honestly a bit more than I believe it's worth; and it's kinda ruined the last few games I've played, simply because they were after it. Yooka-Laylee suffered, as did Kirby Star Allies... in fact, the only game I could safely say I was into for the rest of the period was Dragon Quest 8.

Then my wife got me a SNES Mini for our anniversary, and all other bets were off.

JayMoyles: What were your thoughts on LA Noire? I think I've only played an hour of it on Switch - my poor, poor backlog.

I've enjoyed your chronicle of your time with the SNES Mini. As much as I'd much prefer simply playing these games on Switch through a worryingly non-existent Virtual Console, you can't fault Nintendo for a brilliant idea with the SNES (and by extension, the NES) Mini. Any highlights so far?

JayMoyles: (not ignoring Celeste, will raise that after this )

ZeroJones: (five of our seven questions involve Celeste! )

JayMoyles: (wonder who sent them... )

ZeroJones: I loved L.A. Noire and put it third in the Switch vote. A hugely sprawling and ambitious adventure, the likes of which I don't think we'll ever see again (imagine how much it would cost now!). I loved cruising through downtown L.A., particularly when I decided to have a go at the side quests.

The highlights of the SNES Mini are the vast amount of cracking games it contains! I've loved reconnecting with Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island and Star Fox. The big surprises have been Star Fox 2 (really competent, pumped-up game), Super Punch-Out!! (which I've not really played before, but is a glorious technicolour boss rush) and finding that Donkey Kong Country is not as bad as I thought it might be in 2018.

JayMoyles: I think the studio which made LA Noire has sadly gone under, which is a real shame.

I enjoyed watching your First Play video of SF2 (not you, Ryu) - definitely more than a hint of Command in there. DKC is still a great platformer, albeit a brutally tough one. Rare know their stuff.

I suppose that brings us to the red-headed elephant in the room... Celeste. I've also played some of this before being sidetracked by my Final Fantasy saga, but I really ought to return to it as I've not played a 2D platformer quite like this. It's got the fluid movement of Super Meat Boy without as much of the frustration along with a really charming aesthetic and what seems so far to be a pretty well woven story, especially for a 2D platformer. Of course, you're the boss on this one as you've beaten it, so the stage is yours for some Celeste chat, good sir.

ZeroJones: Then I will have to tread carefully to avoid spoilers! Ouch. I'm not usually fond of this kind of platformer, which I call 'persistence platformer': ones where you have to learn level layouts, rather than just being able to react to them as they come. However, Celeste felt completely fair in its treatment of the player, and somehow gave me the same determination as Madeline to get to the top of the ruddy mountain (incidentally, 'celeste' is Spanish for 'sky blue', which is why whenever someone mentions the mountain, the text is in light blue. Fun fact! No, wait - you usually say 'fun fact' first. D'oh).

The story also builds very well and has what I believe to be an excellent pay-off. It felt like a game where everything came together perfectly and I haven't dared go back to it since the day I finished it in case the illusion shatters (but I do want to see what a B-side feels like, as well as capturing a few more of those dang strawberries). How far did you get in the end, Captain Jay?

JayMoyles: I've beaten a windy level, so chapter 5 is next up, I believe. The B-sides are well worth checking out - I've beaten the B-side for chapter 2 and that was a hell of an undertaking. My fingers were aching by the time I reached the end so ample use of the Switch's sleep mode is advised. They're tough cookies, for sure.

I think "persistence platformer" is a fair classification for this type of platformer. Super Meat Boy falls into that bracket as well and is likely why I'm drawing comparisons here. Much like SMB, I think the instant respawn in Celeste is so important, as it should be for any games trying to cut themselves from the same cloth as the aforementioned pair. It eases any frustration of having to replay large swathes of a level and keeps the pace moving forwards nicely. Ach, I'm making myself want to fire it up after this Admintendo session!

ZeroJones: As you well know, it is quite highly thought of by a number of us, so I can only recommend that you do - I would do the same if I didn't have a recently-downloaded-and-yet-unplayed copy of Graceful Explosion Machine winking at me from my Switch!

Speaking of explosions, it's about time we got to our forumite questions.

...

My segue skills were never that good.

JayMoyles: Not a very... graceful transition.

Forumitely Asked Questions

ZeroJones: Question The First, from a user we shall call 'Balladeer': “What would you like to see the developer of Celeste do next? Celeste 2, another genre, or what?”

JayMoyles: Hm... not having beaten this yet does scupper me somewhat as I don't know if I'll be left wanting more or left feeling wholly satisfied with my time spent climbing that mountain. I suspect the latter, considering how much bonus content is awaiting anybody who picks up the game. I suppose my answer to this would be another platformer, but not a direct sequel to Celeste.

Yourself, Zero?

ZeroJones: I reckon there's a cute JRPG in the Celeste team somewhere. The story feels very well-written for a genre that is not typically known for same; putting those skills to work in a genre that is known for its epic storylines could be fascinating.

Question The Second?

JayMoyles: Question Dos comes from another user we'll name as "that user with a Celeste avatar - no, not that one, the other one". They ask: "Celeste has brought up the topic of pixel art afresh. What are some of your favourite pixellated gaming aesthetics?"

ZeroJones: It's hard to look beyond Shovel Knight for this, certainly in this (OK, the previous) generation. Blaster Master Zero's done some good work in this field, too, and obviously Celeste is no slouch either! What say you, Field Marshal Jay?

JayMoyles: I brought it up when chatting about Hyper Light Drifter, but Superbrothers: Swords and Sworcery is a particularly impressive game from a visual standpoint. The level of detail in its pixel art is staggering. Question Trois, Zero?

ZeroJones: Eh bien, mon pote! This from the Musical User Man: "Celeste's soundtrack has been rightly fawned over. What have been your most memorable musics from year 1 of the Switch?"

JayMoyles: I think the soundtrack crown has to go to Super Mario Odyssey, but I did enjoy the soundtrack in Breath of the Wild, especially as it's so different to previous Zeldas and it's a perfect accompaniment for roaming the hills and glens of Hyrule. Special mystery prize goes to the ARMS title theme... and you're now humming it in your head. :p

Et toi, Zero?

ZeroJones: I am not humming it - I'm using da's (da da daa da, da da daa da, daa daa DAA!). Some of the tunes in Shantae: Half Genie Hero are brilliant versions of themes the series has been using for a while now. Sonic Mania's themes are very nostalgic. Other than that, I have to side with you on Super Mario Odyssey!

Question Vier?

JayMoyles: A user by the name of "Celeste Superfan Numero Uno" demands that we answer this question: "Celeste was among the Switch games that got a lot of attention from us in the Switch's first year, but what are your unsung heroes of the Switch's early days?"

ZeroJones: My only unsung hero is Golf Story, another entry in the sports sim/RPG mashup genre that previously only contained Inazuma Eleven of note. I have a few unsung average games but I suspect no-one really wants to read about those! Yourself, Commander-In-Chief Jay?

JayMoyles: I'll highlight just the one too, with my pick going to Blaster Master Zero. I thoroughly enjoyed this - a cracking little side scrolling shooter crossed with very light Metroidvania elements that didn't overstay its welcome by any means. Well worth a look. Take this chariot onwards to the next question, Legionnaire Zero!

ZeroJones: From the forum's most postiest poster, this: "Is it fair to criticise Nintendo for the Switch drought? Should the fact that their software teams aren't split over two platforms mean we get more games? Or should we be grateful that we've got the blinders we have (like Celeste) and sit tight until E3?"

JayMoyles: No. No. Yes. Moving on.

No, in all seriousness I'm welcoming a small breather. There are so many titles that have likely passed us by on eShop, so it's time to look back on what we might have missed. The releases will come thick and fast soon enough. Plus, you've got Dark Souls coming soon!

Your thoughts, fellow Admin?

ZeroJones: It's an interesting one, that even with a new Zelda, a new Mario, a well-polished version of the best Mario Kart, a new Splatoon, the experimental but rewarding ARMS and a good few others, we've still got nothing to play. I suspect we have got more games than we would have if the teams were still split, and there are obviously more coming. The overflowing eShop could bridge a gap of a year in a mere week.

On upcoming news, though, I suspect there'll be another Direct before E3. Next, Supreme Lord Jay?

JayMoyles: So, somebody with the handle "Admintendo Question King" sent us: "After the Galaxies and Odyssey, where should Nintendo take 3D Mario next?"

ZeroJones: I want a game that integrates Yoshi brilliantly, and is designed for him to be taken from level to level, like the old Super Mario World there once was. I felt the Yoshster was a bit stiff in SMG2 and he deserves better. Yourself, Galactic Emperor Jay?

JayMoyles: I'm enjoying my ever-increasing promotion in rank, here.

Honestly? I want Odyssey 2. I think there's plenty that can still be done with Cappy and I don't think I'm alone in wanting more from that formula. Chuck Yoshi into the mix, give us more Kingdoms full of Moons to find and even more creative uses of Cappy... sorted.

Take us home, Taxi Man Zero!

ZeroJones: So, the seventh and final question comes from the forum's leading Dreamcast fan, and it is as follow: "This week saw 33 new releases on the Switch eShop - how do you fix the eShop so that the best of those are visible and past weeks' games don't get lost?"

JayMoyles: Nintendo are trying, bless 'em, with their news posts highlighting the best of a particular genre on the eShop, but a lot of those are unsurprisingly dedicated to their own titles. I'd love to see a part of the eShop that's curated regularly of "top picks" or something along those lines.

How about you, good sir?

ZeroJones: The eShop is a fascinating insight into 'Burned Nintendo'. After putting more effort into the Wii U eShop front end than the Wii one and, of course, seeing much of that effort go to waste when the Wii U sold like cold cakes, the effort in the Switch eShop is laughable. I want a front end that bursts with colour and life. I want the search function to pop out something more than a list. I want weekly charts, never mind monthly ones, that you can always find in a simple calendar. It would also be remiss of me not to mention that it might also benefit from a piece of music that's updated every once in a while.

JayMoyles: Yep - it's all quiet on the western storefront, sadly.

ZeroJones: I see what you did there.

Thank You So Much For Reading My Text

JayMoyles: Where to next, tour guide?

ZeroJones: Well, we've exhausted the questions that were submitted, so I guess it's time to gently close the curtain on this here Admintendo! My inexhaustible thanks to you, sir, for accompanying me on this text adventure.

JayMoyles: It's been an honour and a privilege, good sir. Thanks to all who sent in questions to tax our feeble Admin minds with - enjoyed answering them!

ZeroJones: Yes! Without the input of y'all, we would be literally nothing. A good set of questions to push our knowledge and imaginations to their very limits and beyond - far, far beyond. I wish all'o'y'all a fine day on this fine day, and will now be away to play Shantae. So it's farewell from Jay –

JayMoyles: Cheerio!

ZeroJones: And farewell from me - au revoir, à bientôt!

*curtain gently folds shut*

ZeroJones wrote:

...it was £20, which is honestly a bit more than I believe it's worth...

Resisting the urge to publish the Lex Luthor picture for the first time in quite a while, why do you feel this, Zero?  You definitely enjoyed what you got out of it, and that's not including the B-sides (or the [REDACTED]).  How much would you price it at?

Thanks for the comments on my vote thread, chaps!  Onto the questions:


- The JRPG idea is a banger, although quite frankly I'd buy anything by that lot after Celeste.  But it has been shown that they can write brilliant dialogue and create brilliant atmosphere, as well as integrate brilliant gameplay mechanics.  Alternatively, a full Metroidvania (which Celeste felt like it was halfway towards already).

- I'm curious at the mention of Shovel Knight's aesthetics: although the game is highly spoken of, I didn't think the aesthetics were thought of to the same degree?  They were certainly a participating factor in my (since dead) 'pixel art is bobbins' view.  I understand more the appeal of Superbrothers, but the colour scheme looks a bit washed out to me.

- Can't argue with SMO, or the ARMS theme.  My award would be to Xenoblade 2 or Celeste (don't ask me to choose!), but I'd tip my hat in the direction of The Sexy Brutale.  Understated yet top-notch and appropriate soundtrack.

- I really must try to get on with Golf Story...

- I generally agree.  I do hope we get more games than we did in previous generations, on either handheld or home machines, and would feel short-changed if that didn't happen; but it's too soon to tell and fair enough for there to be a break now.  I can't say I'm welcoming it, though!  Although my writing probably is...

- I agree with both of those suggestions.  If Odyssey 2 could have a bit more 'oomph' to its collectables, that'd be grand.

- Zero's ambitious ideas are good for me!  To be honest, I'd like to see them apply a teensy bit more quality control (no mobile games with a starting price with microtransactions still in for a start); otherwise, as someone who reads up on his games rather than finds them through browsing, I just want some colour and sound.


'All who sent in questions'?  More like 'both'.  Come on, other chaps, pull yer fingers out!  Otherwise, great work from yer men (Admen?) as always.

Balladeer wrote:

ZeroJones wrote:

...it was £20, which is honestly a bit more than I believe it's worth...

Resisting the urge to publish the Lex Luthor picture for the first time in quite a while, why do you feel this, Zero?  You definitely enjoyed what you got out of it, and that's not including the B-sides (or the [REDACTED]).  How much would you price it at?

...

- I'm curious at the mention of Shovel Knight's aesthetics: although the game is highly spoken of, I didn't think the aesthetics were thought of to the same degree?  They were certainly a participating factor in my (since dead) 'pixel art is bobbins' view.  I understand more the appeal of Superbrothers, but the colour scheme looks a bit washed out to me.

...

- I really must try to get on with Golf Story...

...

- Zero's ambitious ideas are good for me!  To be honest, I'd like to see them apply a teensy bit more quality control (no mobile games with a starting price with microtransactions still in for a start); otherwise, as someone who reads up on his games rather than finds them through browsing, I just want some colour and sound.

1) Any 2D platformer that hides over two thirds of its content from players who just want to see the ending is going to struggle to be full value for money, for me. £14 or £15 might be more fair. I'm sure it's not hurt sales of the game too badly - it would have appeared in a sale otherwise.

2) Shovel Knight does a great job of imitating the graphics of the era, in my opinion. Obviously it's a step up from what the NES could actually produce, but in the mind's eye... yes. Potentially entirely a personal thing.

3) I'd like that. It's not one to absolutely rave about but it is quietly heroic. More of a Flash than a Superman. I'd put it in Jimbob's 'It's a 9 mate' thread if I could work out what the one thing that could improve it would be...

4) The lack of quality control probably goes back to what I was saying about the burned Nintendo - what might have been a tiny trickle has turned out to be a fathomless flood, a titanic tsunami of gaming goodness with more than an ounce of flotsam too. I don't know how they go back from that now... although said rum games could probably be made less easy to find.

Zero wrote:

seeing much of that effort go to waste when the Wii U sold like cold cakes

What sort of cold cakes?

I definitely buy loads more cold cakes than I do hot ones.

It’s a weird phrase all told. And the answer is coffee. I hate coffee cake - it may as well be made out of termites.

One for Jay, I get not playing Tactics, Type-0, Crystal Chronicles etc but what about prequal or sequel such as Crisis Core, X-2, XII-2 etc?

I think X-2 and full on sequels like that make sense Mas, but Jay's got a long way to go before he gets to games which have that kind of thing!

ZeroJones wrote:

I hate coffee cake - it may as well be made out of termites.

It's never one I'd choose, but I don't mind coffee cake. What I do mind is when I bite into a cake I think is chocolate and it turns out to be coffee instead.

Not that far the fourth one does if he plays on PSP, I think this is how I'd maybe play Final Fantasy if I was Jay based on the system I know he's got:

FFI, PSP

FFII, PSP

FFIII, Remake on DS

FFIV, Either on DS or Complete on PSP which has After Years & Interlude

FFV, PS1 Classic on PSN
Legend of the Crystals, If you can find somewhere to watch it

FFVI, PS1 Classic on PSN

Crisis Core, PSP (The best one)
Last Order, If you can find somewhere to watch it
FFVII, PSN on PS4
Advent Children, Should be easy to find to watch just make sure it's the complete edition
Dirge of Cerberus, PS2 is all I think it's on

FFVIII, PS1 Classic on PSN

FFIX, PSN on PS4 (Best mainline numbered)

FFX, PS4 HD Remaster
FFX-2, PS4 HD Remaster

FFXII, PS4 HD Remaster
FFXII: Revenant Wings, DS

FFXIII, PS3
FFXIII-2, PS3
Lightning Returns, PS3

A King's Tale, PSN on PS4
Brotherhood, Should be easy to find to watch
Kingsglaive, Should be easy to find to watch on
FFXV, PS4 and I guess all of Year One content and by the time he get's to this Year Two stuff will be out

There are mobile offerings connected to some of these but not sure if you'd want to play them (I know you're playing FFI on mobile that you might) also another thing worth checking out is Compilation of Final Fantasy VII (Which all stuff part from mobile is in my list), Ivalice Alliance (XII is part of this along with Vagrant Story,) and Fabula Nova Crystallis (XIII is part of this along with Type-0).

Anyway, that's 20 games without universe (Ivalice and Fabula) titles that I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of them Jay and much like Metal Gear, when all is said and done, which one is the *best and maybe some music weeks out of it.

*A few weeks ago Eric Bloomquist tweeted out what your favourite tells you about yourself and I'd like to know which one you fall into, mine FFIX is You understand the importance of character development that mirrors its systems in and out of combat. You covet things like depth, philosophy, and empathy. While enjoying its over-the-top theatrical fun that balances and enriches its beautifully crafted story and the world.

I did ask about Crisis Core and got this You love repetition and modern Japanese "I'm the hero" Anime-esque soap opera tropes to the point of agony.

He should finish Celeste first anyway.  It's got a good story and gameplay beyond watching numbers go up and down!

(I'm aware I'm poking fun at my own tastes as much as anything else here.)

ZeroJones wrote:

1) Any 2D platformer that hides over two thirds of its content from players who just want to see the ending is going to struggle to be full value for money, for me. £14 or £15 might be more fair. I'm sure it's not hurt sales of the game too badly - it would have appeared in a sale otherwise.

Zero my man, you know I love you and your posts and your weird NEStalgia. But this argument just seems... wrong to me.  Surely if you get enough out of the main game, it doesn't matter how much is kept back?  Surely, in fact, that if two games give exactly the same main game experience, the one that has 3/4 of itself as 'extra' is better than the one that has 2/3?  Simply by mathematics.  I don't get this at all.

You are just blinded by your Celeste love and it can do no wrong in your eyes.

Balla and Celeste has become me with BOTW. Zero literally has Madeline as his picture and he still doesn't have sufficient love

Tbh I like seeing folk go daft for a game, I thought the price was a bit much (lots of indies have this issue in my opinion) but luckily I got around the price by using My Nintendo gold coins and got it for like 12 quid.

It still annoys me we look at Indies as their own thing, and just not as games. As I'm someone who did think Celeste didn't look the money but that could apply to a AAA game as well.

That to me it's does that game be it indie or AAA look's like it's worth the price tag.

I see what you mean (I think) but they usually are quite different and even more varied than games you see from the big companies, with the rise in popularity of indie games (not the only reason) I can see why the prices of some have went up but I personally just don't like that.

Of course a game could get away with a high price if I find it infinitely replayable.

If the games good enough, then price shouldn't matter, just because it's a indie doesn't mean it be a fiver no matter the quality. This is been going on for years remember no man's sky and everyone flipped out that was full price because it was a indie.

I'm with Mas on this.  If you enjoy an indie as much as a triple-A title, why shouldn't it cost as much?  (NMS, being bobbins, possibly not the best example though...)  Unless it feels like you're not getting enough bang for your buck.

That said, my main criticism with indies I've enjoyed in the past has been precisely that.  Severed?  Too short.  Guacamelee?  Ended before its time.  Gunman Clive?  You get the picture.  In those cases, I can understand wanting to pay less - but I genuinely didn't feel that with Celeste.  It lasted me for a decent time, possibly because of all those deaths, and I didn't even touch the B-Sides.  That's why I don't buy (heh) the arguments about it being too expensive.

That said (again), despite my undoubted love for Celeste bitsoflevels4and5aside, it wasn't really what I was getting at.  I just found Zero's argument, that a game should cost less if it has more postgame, odd.

NMS was bobbins but people were mad because it's a indie shouldn't cost that much, which I ask why not? If I was a developer and I thought my game was worth £14.99, that's what I'd put it out at, not well its a pixel art indie better only charge a fiver for it. Which to me brings me back to games are games not AAA or indie, you don't pay less to see a indie film in the cinema do you.

Yeah I never said or at least never meant to say that I outright disagree as it does very much depend on each game & what they might be looking to offer.

I was looking at the Switch friend list the other day & I noticed amongst you guys the play time for Celeste ranged from like 10 hours to 35 and that's a great amount for the price of the game IF you happen to get into it, it's the not knowing if I'd get that sort of time out of it that made me hold back on it despite the praise I seen it getting & the fact that I have picked up some games on Switch that I regret paying full price for.

I getcha, Jas. And I know I come from a position of bias. I guess the main thing I'd say about that is that of the people who have played it on here, Mas thought it was overrated... the rest of us all love it. So you'd possibly have been more likely to get into it than not.

Anyway you've got it now, so it's a bit of a hypothetical thing to say in any case. Time will tell!

The time and value one is also an odd one as take something like Firewatch which is coming to Switch and I know it's about 4hrs long for £15 (price on PSN) and is worth every penny.

That's £3.75 per hour when you look at the Last Jedi buying that costs £6.80 per hour, that gaming is the cheapest form of entertainment but something like Firewatch will get called out for being too short and costing too much.

Then something like the new God of War, including myself are a bit sceptical about its 25-30hrs length as that sort of single-player adventure game is normally 12-15hrs and could it be padded out, which if you think about it strange that a £50 game we're thinking should be shorter.

Money is not the only currency with value. One's time should also be valuable; if a game is wasting it, that's not giving you any additional value. Matt Lees has made this point eloquently before on Daft Souls and most recently on the second episode of Cool Ghosts. (Which you should all be watching anyway, being as it is the only actually good content about videogames).

Sure, I'm just pointing out games that seem to be short get called out for their prices sometimes, yet it's one of the cheapest form's of entertainment.

masofdas wrote:

One for Jay, I get not playing Tactics, Type-0, Crystal Chronicles etc but what about prequal or sequel such as Crisis Core, X-2, XII-2 etc?

Well, the short answer is "it depends".

The long answer has much to do with Drunka's post here:

Drunkalilly wrote:

Money is not the only currency with value. One's time should also be valuable; if a game is wasting it, that's not giving you any additional value.

If it's going to take a lot of time to play through an ultimately average Final Fantasy game, then I won't bother. It's something I'm already putting into practice with how deep I'll be getting into each game in the series as I decided to skip the postgame content in FF1 because of how banal and repetitive it felt over and above the main game. I got my fill in 15 hours - I don't need to spend twice that again on playing the same dungeon over and over again with slightly more difficult enemies and frustrating puzzles.

I dislike when people talk about games giving you a certain amount of gameplay and quantify it as "oh, this 100 hour RPG works out at 60p per hour of gameplay, great value!" If 40 hours of that time is spent grinding, then it's time wasted.

I agree with Jay, I'm just coming from the other side when some say that games 2hrs long and are £20 that's bad value, well is it? When there is multiple factors but the most basic one entertainment it really isn't.

Please just play Crisis Core at least if you're sticking to the core fifteen.