Last game you DIDN'T finish and your thoughts

I've not been doing them all in one blast so that's probably the difference there. I'm doing like 3 and then changing transport/getting to work/home. As for the song quality can't say I've noticed a drop.

You're probably right - it feels weird to me not to finish off a Quest Medley. As for the quality, the actual tunes themselves have been done wonderfully - it's just that there are some right duffers in there now.

It's time for me to stop living a lie.  I am never going to finish this game, and that's okay.  Sorry Jas.  (Actually, you probably shouldn't read this...)



The thing I've realised about Cave Story is that there's nothing I actually think is good.  Some things are slightly above average, and some below.  Some are significantly below.

By aspect:

That covers most things, I think.  The more I think about the game, the less I like it.  It's just entirely bereft of strong positives, with only a few small lights (bosses, variation in areas) to illuminate the drab pixellated gloom.  It falls into the Tales of the Abyss category, of somehow keeping me playing long after I stopped finding it fun, yet giving me few rewards for my struggles.

And if I didn't get hugely far in it, I see that as being the game's fault.  No good it getting much better later on if I've given up by then!

Score (REALLY don't look at this Jas!):

In all seriousness, Cave Story was a big deal when the retro revival kicked in several years ago; it might have actually aged now.

Jimbob, that is an extremely reasonable response to what many may say is an unreasonable point of view! To be honest I've never been a huge retro fan: if you scrap the nostalgia factor, old games are generally worse than new games, due to improvements in power and machine quality without much of a drop-off in quality standards (unlike what some might say).  The same game with more power/prettiness is going to be better.  

So I don't know why people are/were so keen on a "retro revival".  Yay, let's go back to things like simplistic graphics and four-channel sound - you know, things that are objectively worse.  I can see why indie developers would be keen to develop in such a style: it's easier, and strains their smaller budgets less.  But there needs to be a top-notch game behind those simplistic graphics, that four-channel sound; or the price needs to reflect the quality drop.

For me, Cave Story was aged when it landed.

So disagree with you balla, newer and prettier doesn't mean better. Is super mario 3D world better than super mario 64, no way in hell is it.

And thought someone that's a Nintendo owner would get gameplay over power.

One of the best games of the year is child of light a 2D game not a fancy 3D game.

Yes, I read the bits balla didn't want me to.................



I honestly have no words on your cave story thoughts.

----

balla wrote:

The same game with more power/prettiness is going to be better.

Right! What have you done with the real balladeer?

Balladeer wrote:

The same game with more power/prettiness is going to be better.

That's a blanket statement. Pixel art aesthetics can be, and often are, more appealing than their high-tech counterparts.

Also, as to your Cave Story thoughts... eh, I can see some of it. It isn't a particular visually appealing game (which I do realise goes against what I said above, but I still stand by that) and until you get the jetpack - which I'm presuming you didn't reach - the platforming is pretty clunky. But I totally disagree with the rest of your thoughts on the game, especially in regards to the music, which I felt was a highlight of the game. The fact is that it was and still is a majorly influential title for indie gaming - and its high quality is the reason for that.

So, respectfully, I disagree with your opinion.

Disrespectfully:

Here we go... Although Jas only has himself to blame.

About the music - sorry, I just don't remember it. At all. So it's not bad, like Sonic soundtracks, but nor can I possibly describe it as a highlight of the game.

About the power/prettiness thing:

But that's by-the-by - my comment about the "retro revival" was meant to complement, not take over from, my opinions on Cave Story. Which, incidentally, has neither pretty visuals nor engaging gameplay.

This looks lovely to me for example, I don't know if it would be better if it had POWER! for it.

Well it's prettier than Cave Story.

On Cave Story: a solid 7/10 game, I'd say. Graphically OK, with plenty of real challenge. The idea of becoming less powerful when you get hit is a gaming staple, used by many games, including the Super Mario series. The issues for me were the ways the story branched - you could only really find them out through guides or word of mouth. The jumping physics were unusual as well, I seem to recall.

Balladeer wrote:

Yay, let's go back to things like simplistic graphics and four-channel sound - you know, things that are objectively worse.

As you have just said about another part of your post, it's a blanket statement. If we're talking completely separate games here, then I argue that the games on the more powerful machines have the opportunity to be objectively better, but it may not necessarily be the case. I would take the looks of Super Mario World over the looks of Kung Fu Rabbit or (yes!) Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams. For exactly the same game the argument is significantly weakened but, I feel, still stands.

Okay what about this one Balla,

Ubisoft could of made the most graphically powerful Rayman game ever yet they decide to make a whole new engine and make some beautiful 2D games with that engine.

2D ain't necessarily retro.

No but you put POWER means better which Ubi could of done with Rayman, but didn't and we've got two great games from the engine they made.

My point, they went for a style that they thought would suit the game they were making. Same with Cave Story you would of thought the team behind went fro a style they think works for the game.

We had a similar thing with Forza that works with photo-realism because that's the type of game it is, I don't think Shovel Knight would work if it was like Forza for instance.

To me it's a time and place for things.

I was surprised you didn't think much of the audio Balladeer, always thought that would be right up your alley: I thought the sound design was really well done. Not just the music (which is in my head right now as I am reminded of it) but the sound effects are great, too.

If you didn't like Cave Story, you certainly won't like Kero Blaster on iOS/PC! I love Cave Story.

Edit: while I'd happily write rebuttals to most of the points, I strongly disagree that the game's platforming and shooting elements are flawed/uninteresting: the physics to both jumping and the jetpack thingie were fine tuned to a tee, giving you plenty of opportunities to float past enemies and aim at them. The level up/down mechanic to the shooting was also pretty smart: I'd take it any day over Castlevania's general EXP/levelling: it keeps everything challenging from start to finish and keeps you on your toes.

I am hungover and the headache has been exacerbated by too much Smash, and I really don't feel like arguing this any further. Especially because I think anybody is going to have a hard time convincing me on either the retro thing or CS. I spent several hours struggling with the game - I am familiar with its platforming and its shooting and its exploring. And when people start talking about Shovel Knight with Forza graphics to support their point, it means the topic is probably on its last legs anyway.

Feel free to carry on stating your opinions, though! I'm glad that my pieces have stirred up some conversation.

Balladeer wrote:

Yes it's a blanket statement, but how is it possibly wrong?

Because you're dismissing an entire art style solely on the basis of one average looking game. It's looking at a Call of Duty game, saying "ugh, too brown", and deciding that every 3D game with a lot of graphical power behind it must look ugly. There's going to be ugly games regardless of how much graphical power it's leaning on.

Take for example, Superbrothers: Sword and Sworcery. Now, this is game wholly reliant on pixel art. But if you take a look at this, I don't see how anyone can dismiss it as anything but bloody gorgeous. Something would be lost in taking that same game and transferring it to a 3D environment. It's the same as saying that Bioshock Infinite could still work as a 2D game - it couldn't. So much of the grandeur of the environments would be lost.

Using pixel art is, yes, often a money-saving tactic for indie developers. But it's also often a legitimate stylistic choice because their game couldn't work as well in a 3D environment. Pretty games are pretty games and ugly games are ugly games, regardless if they're handdrawn 2D, studio-developed powerful 3D, pixel art or a bloody Surrealist love letter to Salvador Dali - it doesn't matter what form they come under.

I'm honestly surprised Balla - I've never known you to place so much worth on graphics. I could give two tosses about your opinion on Cave Story at the end of the day, it's your opinion - but I do have to argue with you on this, as I wholly disagree.

Post of the year goes to Jay.

But I have got a little rant on the subject as well, as I'm using my phone and at work this might have a lot of mistakes but I reckon that you might get bingo.

My point on Forza & Shovel Knight might not of been the best maybe looking at Ryse you could imagine SK looking a bit like that if it went for realism. If it did would we give to tosses about SK of course you'll be going boring brown balla. Where it being the style it is that it's more about gameplay & homage to game's that the devs & some of us grew up.

But seeing you care so much about graphics balla why you got a WiiU then as it's underpowered and not got a all powerful gaming rig with 4k output, the reason I thought you got a WiiU is due to Nintendo games having great gameplay like SK has from what I've played and what likes of Jay has said about it.

Power doesn't mean better by any means my PS4 is more powerful then my dreamcast doesn't mean it's a better console (it might be after it's lifespan), the dreamcast is better as it's game's are great and that's the main thing the game's and how they play.

I did of course bring up Nintendo and gameplay they still the best at it but even them haven't made better game's because of power, Super Mario 64 is still arguably the best 3D mario but looks awful now but still great as good game will always be a good game.

Also if you look at some of the most popular game's of recent years of course COD, GTA up there but with things like angry birds, cut the rope, minecraft and hearthstone none graphically powerhouse but all did sells wise or bringing in vast revenue.

It's similar thing to when you brought up about indies before as well and not being a big fan of them or not that fussed that's one of the reason you dismissed the VITA but to me that's just snobbery, you see the same else where mainly with PS4 having no games as these indies aren't £40 AAA game from multimillion dollar corporation that automatically shit but nope some of PS4 best game's for instance are indies or downloads.

Some of most anticipated game's are indies be it ones like Rime or Below with completely different styles but they suit the game's like how the art of SK suits it and now more of point about forza power suits it as it makes sense for it.

Jas has said before when did we stop just having fun with game's. I know I'm not the best as I find sells interesting. But basically it shouldn't matter if a game is free to play, £40, retro, indie, aaa or anything in between as long as the game is fun to you then who cares what it looks like or how much it cost or how old it is.

2+2=4, that's maths covered and rant over.

Fair enough, Jay.  If it's a stylistic choice, then whether it looks nice is a matter of artistic merit, which is famously non-objective.  I suppose that there are even people who appreciate chiptunes over orchestras, however weird I may find it.  Those screenshots you posted: I still think that they would look better with their pixelly edges smoothed out, so that you get almost a cel-shaded look.  But that's my opinion.

However, please don't bring 2D and 3D into the mix.  I didn't mean to bring that aspect into the conversation.  As I typed to Mas, 2D ain't necessarily retro.  Things like DKCTF and CoL aren't part of any "retro revival", nor do they look or sound it.  

And I still don't think that I talk too much about graphics!  This is very much an exception rather than a rule, I'd hope.  And if the use of pixels is stylistic, as we were discussing, then that's not graphics to me.  It's not a matter of ps, or shovelling polygons around.  It's aesthetics, which is a different kettle of fish, and which I have never pretended is not important.  My stance on graphics is that there's a minimal acceptable standard, which is around good GC level (e.g. Mario Sunshine) for 3D games, and anything over that is a nice bonus.

On a hopefully less serious note, a love letter to Dali would probably be pretty keen on Hitler. And also:

JayMoyles wrote:

I could give two tosses about your opinion on Cave Story at the end of the day...

This hasn't spread outside of "could care less" to other phrases, has it?  American English is all well and good in its place, but not when it's the opposite of what is meant!

Well you said POWER which to me & most means graphics not aesthetics

Yup, and power could, if nothing else, be used to shift the sprites around a little smoother.  More power > less power, in the absence of anything else (but that absence is so rarely the case). It has been pointed out, however, that power need not mean non-spritey visuals if sprites fit with the creator's vision, which I accept.

Balladeer wrote:

JayMoyles wrote:

I could give two tosses about your opinion on Cave Story at the end of the day...

This hasn't spread outside of "could care less" to other phrases, has it?  American English is all well and good in its place, but not when it's the opposite of what is meant!

Or people could just make a simple mistake.

That is, of course, the other option.

FIFA 15, PS4



So got FIFA 15 about a week ago now and I've played it a lot & unlocked quite a few of the games trophies but now with big titles coming out and me getting bored of the game it's gone.

It's a decent footy game but like I've said else where the PES 2015 demo felt better but due to poor timing that's not really a option to get unlike FIFA 15 which unfortunately seems to be missing that special something this year.

It's gone here as you can play for how long you want there's no real end but I did the quad with city, so what else do you need.

7/10