General Nintendo Direct/Treehouse/Other Interweb Broadcast Thread

Balla wrote:

And I don't know whether Katana Zero is roguelike: it could go either way.

The Katana zero wiki page says it's a platformer and the steam page description also says this:

Quote :

Hand-Crafted Sequences: Each level is uniquely designed for countless methods of completion. Defeat foes creatively, using spontaneous approaches to eliminate your enemy as you see fit.

Storming.

Balladeer wrote:

this Direct seemed to be 90% roguelike or roguelite games.

Well I've done the numbers... and it was 33% roguelike or otherwise procedural games

Not ProcGen:

Cuphead
My Friend Pedro
Neo Cab
Katana Zero
Blast Master Zero 2
Stranger Things 3
Vlambeer Arcade with ULTRABUGS
Super Crate Box
Swimsanity
Pine
Bloodroots
Creature in the Well

ProcGen:

Nuclear Throne
Cadence of Hyrule
RAD
Darkwood
Overland
Red Lantern

While we are still on the subject I found an interesting and detailed article on how a rogue-like generates it's levels and it sounds like way more work to me than designing a level by hand.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/28/how-do-roguelikes-generate-levels/

I can't wait to hear the incredible remixes we'll get from Cadence of Hyrule. That Link's Awakening ditty is a really promising signs of things to come.

Yeah, I really dug that Direct. Some kick-ass looking games there:

- Blaster Master Zero 2 was a nice surprise as I quite enjoyed the original and it looked like its predecessor but turned up to 11
- The Red Lantern is going to be really sad
- Katana Zero looked brilliant but probably will get frustrating in later levels
- Cuphead! This was one of a few titles I was gutted I couldn't play by not owning an Xbox. Ori next, please!
- Neo Cab seemed up my alley as I do like the cyberpunk aesthetic and a good visual novel/adventure game in that style sounds like just the ticket

All in all, really promising!

Life's easy when you're not picky about how a game is designed.

The_Jaster wrote:

While we are still on the subject I found and interesting and detailed article on how a rogue-like generates it's levels and it sounds like way more work to me than designing a level by hand.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/28/how-do-roguelikes-generate-levels/

It's definitely hard to do well, but then so is level design in general. I wouldn't so much say either is "harder" than the other, but they require very different approaches

Absolutely! I've played a few poor ones in the last year or so, and I was just trying to point out that not all are made to cheaply create levels and just as much love/care goes into them as any other game.

There was plenty there for me, in particular Cuphead is great of course, My Friend Pedro has been on my radar ever since I first saw it so glad to see we'll be getting that soon. Katana Zero looked like it'll play really well, The Red Lantern disappointed me a bit when they mentioned those two words but it still gave me serious Firewatch vibes which is a huge plus. Bloodroots looks huge fun, Pine seems a competent Breath of the Wild clone and whilst I've not played Necrodancer I got hyped when the music transitioned in to a Zelda theme. The Switch is just ace for games like these.

OrangeRakoon wrote:

Well I've done the numbers... and it was 33% roguelike or otherwise procedural games

Cheeky bastard, coming in with your 'facts'... it felt like more. I consider ULTRABUGS ProcGen because surely the enemy patterns will be? Anyway, if I take away the other ones that I didn't think looked much good...

Spoiler:

You're then left with:
- Cuphead, which looks great but which we kind of already knew was coming;
- My Friend Pedro, not sure if it'll be my thing but it'll probably be high quality, but again, we knew about it and I don't think we saw much new;
- Neo Cab, definitely not my sort of thing but does look pretty cool;
- Katana Zero, looked alright but nothing special;
- Blaster Master Zero 2, didn't play the first one but looked alright;
- Creature in the Well, genius idea and the best of the bunch, but I should probably finish Yoku before I pick up another pinball game.

So okay, the good games weren't my style and that sits with me; but even then I didn't see anything that grabbed me and demanded to be paid attention (and money) to other than Cuphead, which had already been rumoured. Can I blame leakers? If so, I blame leakers.

The_Jaster wrote:

Absolutely! I've played a few poor ones in the last year or so, and I was just trying to point out that not all are made to cheaply create levels and just as much love/care goes into them as any other game.

I'm sure it does. I just think that, from my point of view only mark you, it's an inferior artform to put love and care into compared to level design. Like comparing designing Eastenders sets to designing backdrops for high-budget fantasy epics. Again, purely my controversial opinion, and it's still superior to anything I've got up to.

Yeah I just think you are being extremely harsh on the genre that's all........oh genuine question, what rogue-likes have you played? I ask because I only really started to play them in the last couple of years or so myself and I love that they can be games you can either get completely lost in or play in short 30 minute bursts.

It's interesting actually - I'd be inclined to agree with Balla (broadly - though I don't hate procedural generation) - but I started playing Dead Cells today and the game is structured in such a way that it would be a lot more boring if it wasn't procedurally generated.

That's not the case for all games in the genre but either way. Fun fact.

The_Jaster wrote:

Yeah I just think you are being extremely harsh on the genre that's all........oh genuine question, what rogue-likes have you played? I ask because I only really started to play them in the last couple of years or so myself and I love that they can be games you can either get completely lost in or play in short 30 minute bursts.  

This is the point where I should be embarrasedly saying that I've never actually played a roguelike... except I'm not, because I've played its components.

• The main one is ProcGen, and while the main game I've played that I recall and was bored by was Steamworld Dig, I'm sure there have been others.  Still, I found SWD's mine terrible and nondescript.
  
• Permadeath was the main thing that put me off the Fire Emblem games.  It paralysed me, leaving me unable to go forwards for fear of losing someone.  With roguelikes, of course, you lose progress rather than characters, so it's slightly different.  Still: not a fan.
  
• Regarding going all the way back to the beginning, there are games with aspects of that I've played and got frustrated by (see Phantom Hourglass' bobbins Ocean King Temple), but the main one I remember that I really didn't like was Yoshi's Touch and Go, which also had elements of randomisation.  Bobbins.

It's by no means an exhaustive list, granted, with no true roguelikes in it; and it's probably fair enough that I should give it more of a go - especially after Rum's point about top recent roguelike Dead Cells.  But it's enough to put me off the genre, especially the ProcGen point.  From an ideological (bit pretentious?  Perhaps) standpoint, level design, and the way its elements fit together, is my favourite aspect of one-player gaming.  In the same way that Google's neural networks can create beautiful pictures but I'll usually prefer hand-drawn ones, so it goes with levels.

Ahh it all makes sense now

You should get some multiplayer Spelunky going next time you do a meet-up, I reckon that'd work as an easy entry due to general multiplayer shenanigans

Yeah, there was some nice stuff in there. I'm up for giving cuphead a go. That car driving cyber punk one and the katana thing are very much my jam. Obviously I'll be all over Stranger Things. And Shen pretty much wet herself when we saw Cadence of Hyrule.

Balls Man, you're being silly. I can almost guarantee you've played a game that was procedurally generated and enjoyed it without realizing. Overall, I also prefer a more hand crafted experience, but I suspect this is pixel art/ chip tunes/ squids all over again :p

S'pose. On the other hand the Switch is so jam-packed with hand-designed goodness that at the moment I don't really need to. All it means is that I can watch Directs like that and not have anything jump out at me.

Actually Cadence of Hyrule is probably my best next chance at playing a roguelike.

OrangeRakoon wrote:

You should get some multiplayer Spelunky going next time you do a meet-up, I reckon that'd work as an easy entry due to general multiplayer shenanigans

In multiplayer I reckon I'd like it much more, because the antics of your mates are the key factor rather than the level. I'd be up for that. Like F-Zero X's X Cup.

Also you say 'you' like you're sure you won't be attending.

Balla is being silly as on paper he should love Fire Emblem, I'm talking post Awakening so you can permadeath off and just enjoy it as an outstanding RPG.

Eh, don't the post-Awakening FEs have a disproportionate emphasis on 'waifus'? Also in the little bit of Awakening I played, the story and characters were not great. They could get much better, granted; and Fates looks better in that aspect than Awakening.

Balladeer wrote:

I played, the story and characters were not great.  They could get much better, granted; and Fates looks better in that aspect than Awakening.

Good one, Balla. Fates is much worse than Awakening in the character department. So many one-note gimmicky characters. "I like food". "I like blood." "I like clothes." Genuinely bad character lurk in that game.

I think you'd get on really with Echoes, funnily enough. You can turn permadeath off, there's a bit more focus on the RPG elements instead of the strategy, you can literally rewind turns where you mess up... it's quite forgiving and I enjoyed the story and characters in that game much more than in Fates.

Balla wrote:

Permadeath was the main thing that put me off the Fire Emblem games. It paralysed me, leaving me unable to go forwards for fear of losing someone. With roguelikes, of course, you lose progress rather than characters, so it's slightly different. Still: not a fan.

Understandable, though lots in the genre are starting to change this side of things a little as in Enter the gungeon after a set amount of progress you activate a quest that allows you unlock lifts that let you start at later levels. And in Dead Cells one of the main loops is working towards unlocking permanent weapons and other upgrade that will be used in following runs.

Balla wrote:

Actually Cadence of Hyrule is probably my best next chance at playing a roguelike.

Good man. If you do pick it up it'll be interesting to hear your opinion on it.

I do naturally prefer (the idea of) roguelikes where you get something un-losable for your efforts, but overall I still prefer being able to make saveable progress. Anyway, we'll see about CoH.

If it follows the structure of Necrodancer - which it almost definitely will - then you do gain permanent upgrades as you go to make future runs easier.

From what I've read of the game, it looks like it might be almost levels-based?  Procedurally generated levels, but levels nonetheless?

Also: Nintendo's E3 site has gone live. But we're still over two months' out and I'm not doing a Retailer Christmas Thread yet.

That's most roguelites though, to be fair. You'll have tilesets for each zone, so to speak, so you won't play through the same level as such but there's still a change in aesthetic and difficulty as you progress.

Yeah pretty much every roguelite or roguelike has distinct levels

I get you, but I meant in the sense that there's a level select. That you can finish the levels and then start the next one. That would take away another big thing I'm not so keen about in the genre.