Doctor Who Thread

Saw Twice Upon A Time this morning.

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I don't know what to think of it really. It was a nice little old Doctor vs. new Doctor bit, but I'm unsold on the whole

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Anyway, nice to have a female Doctor at last!

It was a little weird to have a Doctor Who story that ended up

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but it was a nice enough send off for Capaldi. A great Doctor saddled with a writer who should have moved on a few seasons ago. Here's to a new year!

Now, the big question: can we keep a Doctor Who thread ticking over without ZeroJones? But yes: new season, new Doctor, new discussion. What did people think?

I remain unconvinced by her mates. I feel like a new Doctor, especially a new Doctor who makes such an obvious drastic change, should be given some time to show off who she is. By bombarding us with so many new companions from the off, I don't know if I felt she got that. We were too busy following Mr. Can't-Ride-A-Bike.

Although - yay dyspraxic representation? (We do blame everything on the dyspraxia, that much is true.)

Yeah, I wasn't sold on it based on the episode either. It was "alright", the problem is new Doctor debut episodes tend to need to be a fair bit stronger than that. And they usually are. In fact they're usually highlights of the current season and become classics, I'm sure I'm not alone in having all Doctor introduction episodes in my rewatch list whenever I do them.

Aside from the aforementioned fact that the new Doctor was heavily overshadowed (come on it's called Doctor Who, not Companion Who), I feel they tried to cram so many characters down our throats that none of them, so far, have stuck. To make matters worse none of them seemed to have vibrant personalities that might make them stick out, make them memorable, and ultimately make me care about them.

Sure, human stories can be great (in fact while most of the books I read may be fantasy the majority of them are highly character driven and often delve very deep into the human condition), but I feel they were handled so cringily that it just took me right out of the episode. I mean so far main-companion (or at least he came off as the "main" one) only really had one defining trait, and it wasn't his personality. In stark contrast I could have told you any number of aspects of the companions in past seasons based on the debut episode alone.

And I realise in hindsight this post looks like I'm saying companion-centric episodes can't work. They absolutely can, and arguably every new Companion kicked off with them. NuWho started off with just such an episode. Eleven's introduction spent as much time on Pond as it did Eleven. Same with Twelve and Clara. The problem is I feel less time was spent on the character's... Characteristics, and more on trying to establish them as super duper special snowflakes that were, to be blunt, fairly boring as people.

All this at a time when we've got our first ever female Doctor and, as Balla said, should have been the spotlight of the episode. Instead the episode focused on the normal human cast, which was a mistake both because new Doctor should always be the focus and also because this lot are so far incredibly dull.

The "coming soon" trailer didn't help matters either. No hints as to the monsters, plotlines, or any sort of general stinger to get the viewer hyped up. In contrast every other "coming soon" teaser I recall in the franchise has done all of the above.

Of course I'm Australian, so maybe all the actors shown are big names I've just never heard of because of how little UK television we get over here. But overall it just rubbed me the wrong way after what I felt was a lackluster (not bad, simply lacklustre) opening episode for the "new era" of Doctor Who. It was the perfect time to show off some tantalising hints to sell the rest of the season, and instead they just showed a bunch of actors without even alluding to the context they might be filling.

That isn't to say it was all bad though. Jodie Whittaker in the few scenes she was actually given the spotlight showed herself a great choice for the role, absolutely nailing the elements that we know and love about the Doctor while hinting at her own incarnations little foibles and quirks. The monster, like the Doctor, when given the spotlight was great and creepy as heck and felt very Torchwood-y (in the good way, not the bad way). And the production values were also top notch.

So I'll continue watching and hoping the series picks up as it goes forward. There's promising elements here, and Chibbnal has shown he's got the goods with what he did in Torchwood series 2.

/textwalls

Yes. That is... yes. Pretty much that. Right down to liking the Doctor herself and the villain.

Yes.

Would you say it's worth jumping back on board then, or more of a "wait and see" situation?

I dropped Capaldi's run pretty early on - around the episode where the moon was an egg or some nonsense - because the writing felt like it had nose-dived. It wasn't anything to do with his Doctor, but purely that I felt the quality of the show wasn't where it used to be. Is it worth me going back to rewatch Capaldi's run to pick up with this series or should I not bother?

Much though I hate to say it, because I'd love to get your thoughts in this thread as much as anything else - wait and see so far. The first episode had good bits, and the Doctor is good, but it may well be the same thing all over again.

Jesus though that moon egg episode was terrible.

That's fair! I shall commence with the waiting and seeing.

How about going back to watch Capaldi's run, at least? I did hear that the writing picked up as it progressed, which isn't saying much considering the depths that series seemed to have sunk too at one point...

Oh yes, I definitely recommend looking up the rest of the last Capaldi series if you can. There were weak episodes, but overall I thought it was pretty good. Capaldi carries it, natch.

I'm biased as Capaldi's Doctor is easily my favourite, but yeah, definitely give it another go. Series 8 had its ups and massive downs (I actually skipped the episode with the moon, the next two episodes after it weren't great either), but overall Capaldi carried the weaker parts of it and it had some god tier moments at the start and end (Missy. Just.... Everything involving Missy. The finale was a tad melodramatic at times, but damn if it also didn't have some god tier stuff in it too).

Series 9 lifted the game though. Series 8 may have been weak, but series nine was a whole nother deal. Moffat got his mojo back, and the result was a series opener that brought a classic Who monster and villain back at their terrifying best (especially appreciated for you-know-who after their previous horrible showing in the RTD era*), and really showed off Capaldi's talent as the Doctor, Clara also came into her own in these two episodes. The series had its ups and downs, mostly comprising of two-parters of varying quality. And near the end we had an episode I would simply sum up as one of the worst pieces of television I have ever watched. But then Moffat brought the season to a close with a one-two combo the likes of which need to be seen to be believed. A finale that I'll sum up as "could only have been pulled off by an established and versed actor."

Haven't seen Capaldi's final series yet so I can't comment. But I feel confident in saying that continuing won't let you down. Indeed I'd go so far as to say you're past the worst of it and just about to begin the upward track in quality.

To be clear my * denotes (SPOILERS):

You've pretty much sold me there, Athers. It's been so long since I've watched any Who though that I'm tempted to go back and rewatch the whole series to catch up with present day, especially if it allows me to experience some of those amazing Tennant episodes too.

Episode 2 has been more of the same, sadly.  Great Doctor, great setting, great villains (given that they're essentially animate scarves)... but has the Golden Sun: Dark Dawn problem, that you've got too large a party and most of them are bobbins and when they all have to say something it gets tedious and time-consuming quickly.

Are they all on board the TARDIS? I'm all for a bigger supporting cast - see, the Tylers + Mickie - but any more than three on board the TARDIS and that's a bit much, I reckon.

They are all on board the TARDIS. It's bigger on the inside, sure: it's not big enough.

Just caught up with the first two. Bloody brilliant stuff! Love 13, no issues with her mates and we haven't had an overly pompous superhero Doctor speech yet. I'm feeling more positive about the show than I have in years.

The moon egg was brilliant.

Athrun888 wrote:

new Doctor debut episodes tend to need to be a fair bit stronger than that.  And they usually are.  In fact they're usually highlights of the current season and become classics, I'm sure I'm not alone in having all Doctor introduction episodes in my rewatch list whenever I do them.  

Really? Smiths was good, and Tennants christmas special was fun for the last ten minutes, but they're mostly dull and crap.

Athrun888 wrote:

The "coming soon" trailer didn't help matters either.  No hints as to the monsters, plotlines, or any sort of general stinger to get the viewer hyped up.  In contrast every other "coming soon" teaser I recall in the franchise has done all of the above.  

I actually really appreciated this aspect. I like that I have no idea what monsters and stuff are coming up. I will admit that I don't know the actors either, though . . .

Drunkalilly wrote:

Athrun888 wrote:

new Doctor debut episodes tend to need to be a fair bit stronger than that.  And they usually are.  In fact they're usually highlights of the current season and become classics, I'm sure I'm not alone in having all Doctor introduction episodes in my rewatch list whenever I do them.  

Really? Smiths was good, and Tennants christmas special was fun for the last ten minutes, but they're mostly dull and crap.

Considering I just went back to start my rewatch of the series with Eccleston's debut, I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Even if the villain was naff, the Doctor felt suitable mysterious - good, considering this was many people's first introduction to the character, mine included back in the day - and it does a good job of focusing on Rose to build the mystery of the Doctor. The effects are a bit shonky in this day and age, but as a whole, it was a fun ol' time.

Better than your chuffing moon egg or anything, that's for sure.

Ecclestones worked well as a first episode for the series, but I dont think its one Id watch again and again or anything, and it didnt show his doctor off much.

C'mon, Santas with Flamethrowers and Killer Christmas Trees, you can't tell me that stuff wasn't top tier!

I'll write my thoughts on episode 2 in a while, TLDR version is that it was a fair bit better than the first episode, but only in that episode 2 was a 7.5 to episode one's 6. I'll edit in why after Beldum's community day.

There was a lot of fun stuff in the Christmas Invasion but there was also a lot of the Doctor laying in a bed and the Tylers waiting for him to deal with stuff.

To be honest, Im coming around to the realisation it was just Capaldi wuo had a crap introductory episode。

Capaldi had plenty of meh-to-awful episodes, but the season opener ain't one of em! Not the strongest of debut episodes to be sure, but it had some godly sections (basically the entire final act in my opinion was awesome, and vintage Moffat) and, unlike this series, really drove home what his Doctor was going to be and his dynamic with Clara.

Compared to this series which had the Doctor overshadowed by her incredibly dull companions (the first batch of companions since the show started that I'd describe as dull. Hell they even beat out Series 7 Clara, who until now held that title by a mile), and, well.

Basically as far as Doctor introduction episodes go there isn't a single one before this one I think is lower than 7.5, and most of them are 8 or more out of 10.

But back to this episode. An improvement over the first one, but still with plenty of issues. The companions remain dreadfully boring, continuing to exhibit the most barebones of traits that the show then feels the need to beat one over the head with without actually doing anything interesting with them. It's getting to the point where I can't help but fear that the dynamic between the two companions is going to stretch one episodes worth of character development over the entire season.

This bleeds into my other big issue with the episode. The pacing. It was all over the place, but more often than not it felt incredibly rushed. The ending didn't feel earned. Typically one would expect both one-off characters to develop and change, and their reward being a victory neither could have achieved on their own. And yet there was no substantial development. If anything there were hints of a possible change, but to the end they were and felt like the exact same characters that we woke up to at the start.

Now this wouldn't be an issue if the solution wasn't what it was. The entire episode was going for the whole "cooperation gets you where you cannot go alone" thing, but by episodes end neither felt like they'd changed.

The episode lacked moments to breath, to allow the characters to truly expand. Unsurprisingly the best scene of the entire thing was when they were all sat down and having actual interaction with each other, where we learned of the new characters and saw a far-too-short bit of development with the companions.

And by lacking moments to breath I mean that it felt too much action and too fast. I'll explain. In one scene we have the Doctor and the two companions driven into an underground firing range, moments later maincompanion-kun charges out to confront the aliens with a gun, before being driven back into the cave. Then within moments they're assaulted again. We're not given time to digest the events that had happened, appreciate them, or in general breathe.

The same issue happens in the final flurry of scenes, one second someone is being strangled by a you-know-what-if-you-watched-the-episode, the very next they're fleeing from the aliens again, there's a brief pause as a hint is dropped about what I suspect is going to be the series over-arcing plotline, and then before we truly have time to digest any of that we're having the final confrontation. And then it's over.

An there I sat, with what could only be described as a mild sense of disappointment over what I had at the time not figured out the cause.

Now I'd like to drive home what I'm talking about with the pacing by bringing up another episode, from way back, to contrast my points. Dalek, one of my favourite episodes from the first series, and the episode that for me, like so many, was my introduction to the Doctor's most terrifying foe.

The episode ultimately consisted of a single Dalek murdering its way through what was essentially a bunker of alien technology. The reason it was so effective was because after each of its onslaughts we had entire minutes where the cast, and through them us the viewers, digested what had just happened and how thoroughly screwed they all were.

In that episode I was left with a fantastic, terrifying impression of the Daleks, what they could do, and why they were to be feared. In comparison neither of the aliens in this episode left me afraid, or even with a sense of danger. Because we were never given time to digest why they should be scary. About the only thing that got scarier was the alien from episode one due to you-know-what and what I suspect are hints about what happened as a result of that episode.

In conclusion. Perhaps I'm nitpicking, perhaps I'm even wrong. But this was, after a few days of thinking about it, what rubbed me the wrong way about the episode. Like the first episode there were tantalising hints and whiffs of what could have been and could still be, but at this stage can only serve to leave me wanting.

And since the thread is dead I'll just mention that Beldum community day went very nicely. Six great Metagross now reside in my box, with enough Beldum candy to max the three still yet to be maxed once I get the stardust to do so. Maybe I'll even be able to solo some 3 star raids now!

Yes. More of this. Tears to the eyes.

Drunkalilly wrote:

and it didnt show his doctor off much.

Hmm... I'd argue that's the point of that episode, really. The Doctor is meant to be seen as the mysterious individual and you're meant to be swept up in the adventure through Rose's eyes. Whilst that's obviously more effective being fresh to the show as opposed to rewatching it knowing all that we do about The Doctor, I can still appreciate what they were trying to get across with that opener.

So i have to say that as soon as i saw the new interior of the Tardis

Just in case :

I'm a bit behind, but Episode 3 for me is the first episode that really worked... because it put the band of travellers to work. Dealing with racism works a lot better when you've got an ethnically diverse group. It's the first episode that worked better for having them than it would have done without. I think they'll struggle to keep up the consistency, though, unless this series is entirely about racism... which I'd be okay with. Also, Graham is still pointless.

Episode 4 now!