Doctor Who Thread

Well this thread died. Certainly not indicative of the season and its quality or ability to engage the viewer.

I've been waiting for other people to comment, because I didn't want to carry on a discussion that only I'm interested in... cricket thread aside.

I actually think it's hit a bit of a stride of late.  Episode 4 and its giant spider bobbins was dire, and I'd completely forgotten about General Cicero and the world's most adorable monster; but the partition one was excellent I thought; the 'we can do right-wing episodes too y'know' Kablamm one was pretty good; and the first half of the witchy one was pretty good too, before the most generic villains possible happened.  

They still haven't justified Graham's existence, mind, and the show's still weaker for cramming four people into a TARDIS for two.  I think I'd be happiest if he and Ryan got their resolution and the Doctor travelled around with Yaz.  She's my favourite of the companions.

Honestly I was done after the second episode.  I was mildly positive about it straight after watching it, but after sitting on it for a few days. . .  Yeah, not that good.  In fact the first two episodes in any of the other seasons would have been considered the low points of them (remember the episode "42" in series 3?  Yeah, my point exactly).  They were the worst things a episode of Doctor Who could be: dull and boring to watch.  

I might force myself to watch the next two or three episodes soon.  But I'm definitely not looking forward to it.  Whitaker's doctor feels like a mishmash of Ten and Eleven without the understanding of what made those two Doctors so appealing (Ten was upbeat and energetic to hide the deep sorrow and loneliness in himself, and when that side of him surfaced it was genuinely spine-chilling television.  Eleven was a mavarick who would come off as almost immature until he took things seriously,at which point most villains had the decency to realise how screwed they really were).  And she hasn't established any real uniqueness to her Doctor.  

You know after every regeneration I always watched with a sense of trepidation.  I loved every previous incarnation, and there was always this mixture of in-universe fear that the Doctor was no longer the Doctor coupled with the real-world trepidation that the new actor might now have the chops.  

And without fail every debut episode left me feeling "yes, that was The Doctor" and excited to see where things would go next.  

Two episodes in and Whitaker has yet to do any of that.  She has yet to make the role hers, and she hasn't had any moments that have sold me on the casting choice.  She seems competent.  But that's the thing, The Doctor has always been oh so much more than merely competently acted.  He has always been charismatic as all hell, and capable of holding the screen and viewers attention.  

To put all of that into perspective, look at Capaldi, the twelfth Doctor.  His first series plain sucked for its majority.  And yet his acting and dynamic with Clara (until the middle of the series decided to ruin that for a while) made what would have been painful television downright entertaining to watch.  

But what has made me not chase the series up until now, on top of all of that, was that I had two suspicions about the choice of making the Doctor.  The first was that it was a chance to explore new ideas and concepts, a reinvention of the series that it honestly needed after ten series.  

The other was that it was going to be focusing on political agendas galore, and that that and not the storytelling, would be the focus.  The first two episodes have made me suspect that is what is going on, but it was hearing the third episode's setting after missing its airing on television that made me dread sitting down and watching it.  

Tackling social issues is fine and can lead to amazing television.  But with the direction of the first two episodes I had the concern it would be done with all of the subtlety and tact of a Megaton Hammer to the crotch.  I still do have that concern, but I'll sit down and watch it.  Worst comes to worst I'll just focus on Duel Links and then rewatch some of the earlier Doctor Who on bluray afterwards.  

And if I sound extremely cynical towards the episode already the series only has its own opening episodes poor quality to blame.  But I'll give it three more episodes tomorrow evening after my first EX Raid.  I'll clear my mind and watch them and see what I think.  The series lives or dies on those three episodes. I shan't be spending any more time than that unless the series shows me even a shred of the pedigree of the Davis and early-Moffat era remains.

The series has definitely got better, the rosa parks episode is good but I think the partition of india is probably the best. The opening episode of the series is easily the worst. If you are judging it all on the next three episodes, then you have one good one followed by two bad ones, and then you won't see the better episodes after

OR summed up what I was going to say in a post rivalling Athers' in two lines, thereby stealing some of my thunder. But... pretty much that. 1 and 2 are bobbins, the SJW episodes are some of the better ones to my mind (they're not subtle, this is Doctor Who we're talking about, but they're good), and the Doctor herself is good... but probably needs more development that she just won't get while the TARDIS is so cramped.

Also, since when was a JRPG superfan put off by slow starts?

This is the best doctor who has ever been.

Drunkalilly wrote:

This is the best doctor who has ever been.

Perhaps if all you care about is ticking a box on a agenda list and not a single ounce about acting quality, sure.  If you do care about actual performance she's easily the worst Doctor I've seen (and I've seen more than just the modern ones.  Pertwee is up there with Capaldi as my favourite Doctor).  

Sure, I haven't seen more than two episodes.  Maybe she'll grow into the role!  That's still two episodes longer than every other actor I've seen needed to make the role their own though.  Most people aren't going to give a series that long to find its feet, and indeed if the series wasn't still up on free streaming I certainly wouldn't be giving it or Whitaker's Doctor another chance this year.  Those first two episodes were like being tickled by a wet noodle for fifty minutes.  

That's the thing.  I've seen what good female protagonists look like.  What good plots involving these sorts of ideologies and conflicts look like (not three months ago with the Liveship Traders trilogy, one of the best works of fiction regarding women and the struggles they have in a male dominated society, with some genuinely toxic yet well written male antagonists that made you positively want to strangle them.  Alongside some great pirate swashbuckling and fantasy scope).  And then I see what this series has done.  It's basically shitcanned the series that used to be about wacky fun adventures in time and space with a plucky sidekick and a eccentric time travelling alien and replaced it with the sci-fi equivalent of watching paint dry with some very distinct social political undertones (or rather overtones.  The term undertone implies some hint of good writing was present) for its first two episodes.  

And as far as the series itself is concerned, well.  The fact the first two episodes sucked automatically means it cannot ever reach the heights of series 1, 2, 5, or 9.  The new companions are so unremarkable that after two episodes I still cannot tell you their names.  

Baubleadeer wrote:

OR summed up what I was going to say in a post rivalling Athers' in two lines, thereby stealing some of my thunder. But... pretty much that.  1 and 2 are bobbins, the SJW episodes are some of the better ones to my mind (they're not subtle, this is Doctor Who we're talking about, but they're good), and the Doctor herself is good... but probably needs more development that she just won't get while the TARDIS is so cramped.

Also, since when was a JRPG superfan put off by slow starts?

Slow starts either have to show some sort of promise that the investment they are being given (the viewer/reader/players time) will be repaid or have already established a history of trust to work.  One of my favourite fantasy authors does this in every book, with slower paced novels that absolutely explode in the final act where everything comes together and concludes in a climax truly worth of the term.  So when I slogged through a 1200 page novel that took a solid 600 pages to even get interesting I knew it would be worth my time.  Because his prior material had built up that trust.  (And hoo boy was it worth the investment.  Stormlight Archive is epic fantasy at its best)

Chibnal's Doctor Who contributions do not have such a relationship of trust.  His three prior episodes include an episode so bland and generic I suspect nobody here even remembers it ("42" in series 3), a nonsensical episode about dinosaurs on a spaceship (that admittedly was quite fun until the last act where it shat its pants), and Power of Three (which was, again, actually pretty good until its ending decided to go full "oh crap we've only got five minutes to wrap this story up!").  Oh, and that dinosaur people duo in series 5, which was decent until one actually sat down and thought about it and realised that the two episodes had no tension, took every obvious storytelling choice it could, and was extremely bloated.  

There's subtlety and there's subtlety.  Doctor Who never bashed me over the head with Captain Jack's sexual orientation in a way that made it seem like it was saying "see, look at how diverse and inclusive we are!!!!"  No, he was a genuine character.  His sexual orientation was a part of him, in the same way it is for everyone.  It was not the point of his existence in the story.  As a result I warmed to him (as did most people), and didn't view him as a character, but a person, while I was immersed in the story of the episodes he was in.  

So far that has not come even close to occurring with the new cast.  They still feel like shallow cliches made to conform to a checklist based on the current political climate rather than actual people.

Anyhow that's enough of my basing things on assumptions and repeating points I've already made without much fresh input to add to them. I'm going to have my dinner and then start episode 3.

Dear oh dear, what a trainwreck of a political message that was.  

So.  Rosa.  Where do I even begin.  I know, let's begin with how much of a parody that episode became about genuinely important issues!  Literally every white person with more than two lines was portrayed as either evil, a evil racist, a jerk, or an incompetent idiot (and only one person got that glowing characterisation).

Let's start with the "villain".  Mister "racist psychopath from the future wanting to create a master-race through timeline alterations".  That last half of a sentence is actually a cool concept that could have provided an excellent episode in the hands of a witter with actual talent, and there were glimpses of that cool episode as we had the cat-and-mouse game of the gang trying to keep up with his two-steps-ahead tweaks to history.  But alas they had to faff it up with the villain being as predictably horrible and shallow as possible.  Not even joking, I could write a better villain for the episode.  

But no.  His entire character can be summed up as "he likes hurting and killing people, and he hates people of different ethnicities than him".  



See this is exactly why I was against this direction for the series.  I knew from the first two episodes that the team in charge neither had the right motivations nor the actual skill to handle these sorts of sensitive issues well.  And every single episode I've seen thus far only reinforces that impression.  There was a decent episode in here somewhere, unfortunately it had its oxygen deprived because the episode spent so much of its runtime being an unintentional parody.  

And don't even get me started on how hammy changing the end theme for the episode was.  

Meanwhile Whitaker still hasn't done anything to make her Doctor a distinct one.  A bit of an attempt at Tennant's gravitas and Matt Smith's flippancy, but that was about it.  


I chalk the fact that I sat through the episode mildly engaged up to most of the supporting cast being excellent and the fact I pulled a super rare unit in Dragon Ball Legends during one of the more dull scenes making it hard for me not to sit there with a grin on my face.  Four out of ten.    

Right.  Up next is Arachnids in the UK.  Considering how the last attempt at handling a Spider based story went I suppose I should brace myself.  But maybe at least this one I'll get a few laughs out of.

---------------------------

Well, I was right on the laughs mark.  What on earth did I just watch?  The CG was terrible, and every one of my prior complaints only intensified because of the episode.  Another episode where the only non-companion white guy is an asshole, portrayed as evil, and is the villain.  Shocking.  I think the only thing missing was the orange hair and the accent.  And I'm starting to detect some anti-American undertones as well.  

I think the best scene was definitely when the Doctor got all outraged over the wannabe President shooting the giant spider that was already suffocating from being too large.  Remember in the past series when the Doctor's outrage was typically justified or at least understandable?  Yeah.  I miss those days.  But at least these days are good for some laughs!  

I suppose I should say at least one positive thing.  At least they didn't resort to the cliche "it was aliens" reason for the Spiders going all Australian.  Although considering we instead got a very poorly done and shallow message about human waste instead I think I would've preferred an alien conspiracy reveal.  Actually nah, this was definitely a damned if they did damned if they didn't situation.  

Right, what episode is next?  *checks list*  Something called The Tsuranga Conundrum.  Well, at least this title doesn't spoil the entire episode like Spiders in the UK did.

-----------------------------------

Well that was an episode. A very boring, slow, bloated episode. I don't think I've seen a monster that unthreatening in this series since... Ever. And yes, I'm including the cuteness that was the Adipose in series 4. Also I'm having actual deja vu right now. Eh, I must just be tired, which this episode didn't help with.

So to keep things concise, the episode was boring, had a monster that couldn't make up its mind whether it wanted to be cute or evil and so was neither. A cast of characters flatter than a piece of paper. A story straight out of Doctor Who 101. And a really stupid attempt at wackiness in a pregnant man handled about as interestingly as you'd expect.

I think I'm reaching the point where anger turns to apathy. The show I once loved is very clearly dead right now and awaits a regeneration. I'm tossing between forcing myself to continue just to have an informed view or calling it quits and just rewatching some actual proper Doctor Who.

...yeah, perhaps don't carry on.  I mean, they start getting better afterwards, but if you didn't think Rosa was any good and you don't see anything at all in the Doctor, well... it's not worth trying on any further.  The Doctor herself is pretty good, but her mates remain bleah.

I thought the Norwegian house episode was a bit bobbins.  The finale was alright, however. Not violently excellent. The villain was violently excellent.

Yeah I think I'll do just that, I just don't think I have the stomach for more of this series.  In a vacuum Rosa would have been a decent episode (well, that and if they'd toned down the "all whites in America in the 1960's were racists because they're white" rhetoric), but the other four would all be considered the worst episode in the season if they were in the older seasons (I remember episodes like "Fear Her" more fondly than any of these ones).  

Like I get the whole "man is the worst monster of them all" idea they're pushing.  However not only is that a concept played out before (in this very franchise no less.  Dalek back in series 1 for example.  And any episode that featured the Ood being put into slavery.  Humanity is a species built upon conquest and conflict, and those traits will always threaten to surface and expose the very worst of the human race from time to time), you cannot largely put one race and gender as the face of that in a diversely cast series and not come off as being accidentally racist.  

It's not even that hard.  All you have to do is cast a set of diverse people (which they did), and then simply tell good stories (which they didn't), the rest handles itself when you do that.  

Instead they put real world politics front and centre. Sure, Doctor Who has tackled these sorts of things many many times before. However in the past the show would have more tact, often choosing to make parables and similes. Here it has instead chosen to lecture the viewer. I don't watch a TV show to be morally lectured, and indeed the more blatant the lecture the more likely I am to turn against it. Conversely the more engaging and immersive a story the more likely I am to actually take on board any of the moral lessons and themes it was trying to convey.

To be clear I didn't go into this series wanting to hate it like I'm sure some sections of the fanbase did.  In fact back when everything was announced I was cautiously hopeful.  Torchwood series 2 had been fantastic (I am now convinced this was a fluke), and Whitaker seemed a promising choice (nor would she have been the first actor cast that had people doubtful, only to shut them up within the first five minutes).  

Alas this series has pissed all of my 12+ years of goodwill down the toilet in the space of just under five hours.  I'll skip the next four episodes and watch the finale tomorrow (one of the only good things about not having an overarcing story?  I don't have to watch much of the series to watch the finale).  After that?  Dunno.  I honestly never thought I'd say this, but this might be the end of me and Doctor Who.  And I cannot express how depressing it is that it's ended this way.  I may not have always kept up with the series as it aired in recent times, but it's always been one of my favourite series since the 2005 reboot first aired over a decade ago and catching up with the newest series every year or two has always been a highlight of that year and a genuine joy. Seeing what's been done to it in the space of five episodes is honestly soul-crushing. The series that used to show off the very best of what can be done with sci-fi has become an example of how not to make a TV series.

Actually, wait! I forgot I haven't seen series 10 for a second! There's still good material left before the farewell! Still gut-wrenching to even think this might be the end though, but at least if it is the end I'll have my last memory of new content with Capaldi.

...maybe skip the rest of the series, but it's too early to write off the entire show on the basis of that! Come on, Athers, you're not Mas and they didn't put up a 'sponsored by Konami' sign in the episode (sorry Mas, it's just too easy). By all means give it a break, but 'I'll never watch it again' is a bit much.

I'd actually say 'Kerblamm!' is possibly a better shout for an episode for you than the finale. It looks like it's going to be political, then swerves dramatically away from your expectations.

Athrun888 wrote:

 

But no.  His entire character can be summed up as "he likes hurting and killing people, and he hates people of different ethnicities than him".  

Imagine that from a Doctor Who Villain . . .

Baubleadeer wrote:

I'd actually say 'Kerblamm!' is possibly a better shout for an episode for you than the finale.  It looks like it's going to be political, then swerves dramatically away from your expectations.

I actually hated that episode for the very reason you just recommended it. An episode where Amazon were the villains would have been very apt but then the actual story was . . . workers are bad for wanting more?

Drunkalilly wrote:

Athrun888 wrote:

 

But no.  His entire character can be summed up as "he likes hurting and killing people, and he hates people of different ethnicities than him".  

Imagine that from a Doctor Who Villain . . .

Yeah, um, sorry, that defence is kinda piss poor.  Even the Daleks have more complexity to them.  Or rather, they use their simple concept as a means to create incredibly varied stories, have an incredibly long and rich history with the franchise, and because of all of that have complexity.  

This pathetic excuse of a villain is the sort of thing I'd expect from a ten year old making a story for an english assignment in school.  His motivations are more shallow than a basic Dalek's.  His backstory is nonexistent, his motivations are not explored beyond a single simplistically handled sentence, and the fact he didn't actually hurt or kill anybody makes him ineffective as a threat.  

And it didn't need to be that way.  It would've taken less than two minutes to have him explain his past beyond "I like hurting people", throw in a few reasons for his hatred of non-white races, and in the process both completely demonise him and make him believable as a villain.  He could have been a brilliant example of the very worst aspects of the human condition (which was so blatantly what they wanted him to be).  Instead he was a parody of the messages the writer was trying to make him a vehicle for.

Psychopaths can make compelling villains.  They do, however, require nuanced writing and good acting for them to achieve that effect.  You want a good example of both go and rewatch John Simm's Master in series 3's brilliant trilogy of a finale.  You want an example of how not to make such a villain simply rewatch Rosa.

To be clear I'm not saying villains that are 2 dimensional are exclusively bad (in fact some of the very best villains in fiction are 2 dimensional). Simply that the villain in the episode was absolute trash, badly done, and a failure on all accounts. The episode was trying to act as if it was a profound statement, and the villain of it was a perfect example of every single issue with said episode, as well as being one of those issues himself.

Drunkalilly wrote:

I actually hated that episode for the very reason you just recommended it. An episode where Amazon were the villains would have been very apt but then the actual story was . . . workers are bad for wanting more?

Call it a guilty pleasure on my part. Who's plots are generally pretty left-wing, so when it didn't go the way I thought I was surprised. I appreciated that, even while going, 'Ooh that's an awfully right-wing message for Doctor Who.' I wouldn't have appreciated it if the show in general didn't bend the way it does, though.

I think Athrun will prefer it to some of the others. I still liked Rosa though. The real villain of the episode wasn't the time terrorist, much like the real villain in Demons of the Punjab wasn't the alien assassins: it was humans and their hate.

The time traveler villain was underutilised, but that's because the episode wasn't really about him. I really liked how they wrote in a reason for him being unable to outright kill, and his plan to subtly nudge history in a different direction was a good one. The episode should also get praise for avoiding the pitfall of making the Doctor (and her companions) the heroes. They had to act only to ensure things happened as they already did, and it was interesting to see them wanting to intervene but knowing they shouldn't. It was also just a straight up informative episode.

It really does seem like you went in wanting to not like it. Still think you should watch Demons of the Punjab though

Okay, I need to get something clear.  I may be bashing the villain, that is due to how the villain of the episode was essentially the embodiment of every single issue the episode itself has.  He is a cartoonishly simple parody of a racist, an attempt at commentary that falls flat on its face (like the rest of the episode) because it lacks any shred of believability.  

Okay, he's a racist from the future.  Fine.  Why is he a racist?  We don't know.  How did he get a vortex manipulator?  We.  Don't.  Know.  

You see what I'm getting at here?  He isn't even two-dimensional.  He exists as nothing more than social commentary caricature in a setting that already had more than enough ways to make its points about racism.  I'm not saying he needed some sort of uber complex backstory and motivations, but he needed something, because otherwise we're left exactly what we got.  A parody of a psychopathic racist.  

In fact I could make the episode a thousand times better with a few simple edits.  Let's see.  The Doctor and co arrive for the same reason as before.  However instead of having this villain we never even see the culprit.  The episode focuses exclusively on Rosa (remember when episodes centered around historical figures actually had said person interact with the main cast and play a role in the story?  I do), and the cat-and-mouse game as the Doctor and co race against time to fix the tiny alterations that would see history altered to an unrecognisable state.  A few very small hints are in the episode that a certain tooth fairy of an alien was responsible.  

There.  The episode is now FAR better than it was.  We have the beginnings of a potential overarcing storyline that doesn't detract from the standalone episodic nature of the season, and when said villain returns it's in a final showdown that feels all the more personal because everything has been leading up to it.  

Alas this does not fix the rest of the episode, which is beyond saving from a few small rewrites due to how unintentionally satirical it is.  From the very first scene when the gang arrives we get an honestly and genuinely hilarious attempt at displaying racism.  Ryan gets slapped so fast by the white husband he literally would not have had time to even properly process who he was being addressed by when he turned around (don't get this point wrong, I'm not saying that sort of thing didn't happen.  I am criticising the way it happened).  

And don't even get me started about the alleyway scene with Ryan and Yaz, you mean to tell me a professional writer actually sat down and parroted real life anecdotes and nothing more?  The dialogue in the scene was absolutely dreadful, and instead of leaving me thinking "gee it might be hard to be someone of a different ethnic background" it had me going "did they seriously just say that?  Who wrote this script?"  If you're going to bring this stuff up explore it.  Again, the episode was as shallow as a kiddy pool.  It was things like this that made it so.  

If the episode had kept its sensationalist dramatisations to the bus scenes and only the bus scenes and truly explored the impacts of racism on those subjected to it they perhaps could have kept the episode on track for good commentary, because those were genuinely good concepts and scenes (until the end one, we saw so little of Rosa that the ending was completely unearned).  But no.  Instead they portray white people as inherently racist, and drive the point home with a time travelling racist from the future.  

This is NOT how you drive home or create a narrative about how humans are the real monsters.  In fact in episodes 2, 3, and 4, every antagonist and villain was a white male, and they were often the only white males in the episode (excluding Graham of course, who ironically is the only likeable character in the main cast.  Ryan and Yaz would be good too if they had the scripts to back them up, alas).  Whether this was intentional or not this is, in fact, racism (oh the irony).  

I remember very clearly a time when Doctor Who was actually optimistic, where we would see the very worst of humanity contrasted with the very best in the same episode, and where we would be shown some optimism that felt truly sincere.  

I'm honestly astounded that anybody actually thought the episode was anything more than a 3/10.  The only good thing about it was the acting.  Excluding Whitaker whose portrayal of the Doctor is frankly weak and nothing like the actual character.  We went from Capaldi, Smith, Tennant, and Echelston to this.  The previous Doctors have been so well acted they could make your very blood freeze in the veins, send chills up your spine, or bring tears to your eyes.  They felt alien, they felt like an eccentric god whose good nature is hiding a being capable of scorching the very stars themselves out of the sky.  And above all else, they were so good they could outright carry episodes that were medicore, indeed that is exactly what Capaldi did in his first series.  

Where is any of that in Whitaker's portrayal?  Where is the alien god that could go from peppy to godly and terrifying in the literal blink of an eye?  Where is this person?  This person?  This person?  Oh, and this is a very good example of the evils humans can do, by the by.  Minus the sanctimonious political lecturing and with a good dose of fantastic dramatic acting.

What, exactly, is Thirteens character beyond some mimicking of Smiths Doctor's childish side with extremely unconvincing attempts at the thunder of Tennant's Doctor?  

I will be completely and absolutely blunt.  I don't know what else Whitaker has acted in, nor I have not seen it.  But based entirely on how she's playing the Time Lord in the episodes I've seen she wouldn't even be companion material, much less has the chops for the titular role (literally any of the companions since the show's revival would've done a better job).  There are several possibilities for this.  The scripts being rubbish (certainly doesn't help, has this series thrown her a single scene that would require her to reach into herself and bring out her best as a dramatic actor?  Certainly nothing in the five episodes I've seen).  The directing could be funky.  She might simply not have the right skills for the job.  Or it could be some mixture of all three.  

Could Whitaker do an episode like Midnight or Heaven Sent?  Episodes that required exceptional dramatic acting to pull off, and in doing so became some of the most fascinating television in the modern era?  No.  Not based on what her current performances as The Doctor are.  

Doctor Who used to be a showcase of some of the UK's finest acting, wrapped up in a show that was equal amounts horror, quirky humour, whacky sci-fi, and character driven drama, with the occasional poignant social allegory.  Now it's a pale imitation of what it was not three years ago.  

OrangeRakoon wrote:

It really does seem like you went in wanting to not like it. Still think you should watch Demons of the Punjab though

It's less that and more that once my suspension of disbelief is shattered I go from a consumer of entertainment that is fairly easy to please to extremely critical.  I wanted my suspicions to be wrong.  I wanted the first two episodes to simply be missteps as the show under an entirely new and untested creative team found their footing and got to work course-correcting.  

Instead I had my concerns proven spot on.  Whitaker's Doctor was not the character that so captivated me over a decade ago.  The episodes were either being used as vehicles for political messages or some of the most generic and cliche Doctor Who plots imaginable.  And then, because I am extremely fond of the franchise, I got slightly more than miffed about it.

Actually that makes me realise another aspect this series fails compared to previous ones.  Previous series would mask their flaws through exceptional acting and fast-paced plots that would prevent the mind from wandering.   This series goes out of its way to leave the mind with nothing to do but wander.

If I do watch any more of series 11 it's going to be a week or two away.  I need time to detox.  Maybe rewatch some of the classic NuWho episodes to remind myself why I love the show to begin with. Although at this point I don't see much of a point, while I didn't come into episode 3 4 and 5 looking to criticise, the same cannot be said about any more of the season if I were to watch it.

I think Whitaker is pretty good (you should watch the Black Mirror episode The Entire History of You for some real sci-fi goodness).

Your perceived victimisation of white males I think is somewhat imagined, and the episode certainly doesn't portray all white males as inherently racist. Seems a weird claim to make when a white male is one of the main cast members and most liked by fans.

I also think your complaint about simplistic messaging is forgetting that Doctor Who is a kids show

Perhaps I could sit down, turn my brain off, and relax if the show was even remotely entertaining.  The scripts are awful, the plots are either thrust into the background for extremely hamfisted political point-making or something even a ten year old could do better, the characters are so flat they barely even feel like characters (much less people), and there isn't even a trace of humour and wit that was positively oozing in both the RTD and Moffat era's.  

Calling it a kids show does the franchise a massive disservice.  It's a family show, and it's one of the pinnacles of what a fictional work aimed at the family can achieve.  It can deliver powerful drama and acting, it can deliver extremely dark themes, and at the same time it can be light and fun and entertaining.  Not only that, if it was specifically a kids show spinoffs directly aimed at children such as Sarah Jane Adventures would not exist.  

The simple fact of the matter is Doctor Who used to be an incredibly charming, entertaining, enjoyable series that would frequently touch upon a social theme long enough to make a point and then drop it fast enough to prevent it labouring said point.  And this series is devoid of literally every single thing that makes it what it used to be.  This series has been like being used to a gourmet pizza parlour known for pizza's packed flavour and toppings then going back there after a year away only to be served with a frozen pizza.  

As far as being simple goes, yes, that's exactly the problem series 11 has.  It has taken a show that typically makes its social commentary without crawling up its own arse and has done exactly that.  Series 11 decided it would focus on social politics over storytelling and proper character personalities and arcs.  It wants to pretend it's capable of profound messages, and yet every time it focuses on these issues it merely proves it has the knowledge of an idealistic small child.  

Meanwhile I'm sitting here, five episodes in, unable to even name a single unique aspect of 13.  Because the 13th Doctor has been fleshed out that little.  In fact the only character who's stood out is Graham, and I suspect that's entirely down to Bradley Walsh's brilliant performance.  

Anyway I'm done on this subject.  I'm going to bed, and then tomorrow I might rewatch some actual Doctor Who.  And from there I will decide if I give the series enough of a chance to watch Kerblam and the finale and maybe Demons of the Punjab.

Maybe the difference is that I've never rated Doctor Who /that/ much I gave up on Capaldi during his first season so I had regained some resistance to the normal Doctor Who tepidity for this one, and I was drawn back with the promise of a new showrunner (who has turned out to be pretty bad - I'm not sure what it is about Doctor Who and writers turning into bad showrunners)

It's always been a show for me with only a couple of good episodes per series, and where almost every episode could be obviously rewritten to be a lot better than it was. As a sci-fi fan it's the concepts that more often carry my attention.

I think I fall into that bucket too. Never really rated it that highly. A lot of the episodes in any given run tend to be bobbins: it varies around 30-70% good in any given series, and this one's probably been about 40% for me. I think I'm also expecting less subtlety than Athrun is. (And to be honest, much of the time I'm playing Switch at the same time anyway.)

That said I did really like Capaldi's last series, mostly because Capaldi is my favourite Doctor (I've only ever watched NuWho) and was allowed time and space (ha) on-screen to be so.

I was really excited for him, but the first few episodes were written completely ill-fittingly. I think I stopped at the robin hood episode, it was truly dire

That was the worst one though, that's like judging this series on the spiders episode.

Yeah I know, I needed the break though.

Also I think the opening episode was worse than the spiders, even though both had nothing good in them

Just what I needed, spending the Christmas period rewatching the Ninth Doctor and early period of the Tenth Doctor.  I'll admit my love for the franchise was fading after series 11's farce, but this stuff hits the spot.  It was akin to going out in a 41 degree day and coming back to an air-conditioned home at a nice nippy 23 degrees (if that sounds oddly specific you'd be right in suspecting that).  

I was harsh on Series 11 before.  I now completely disown it, it doesn't hold even the faintest shred of quality compared to the show that came before it.  Actually seeing the older series in contrast really showed how genuinely shoddy series 11 is.  

Baubleadeer wrote:

I think I fall into that bucket too.  Never really rated it that highly.  A lot of the episodes in any given run tend to be bobbins: it varies around 30-70% good in any given series, and this one's probably been about 40% for me.  I think I'm also expecting less subtlety than Athrun is.  (And to be honest, much of the time I'm playing Switch at the same time anyway.)

That said I did really like Capaldi's last series, mostly because Capaldi is my favourite Doctor (I've only ever watched NuWho) and was allowed time and space (ha) on-screen to be so.  

The difference is that when the series was good it was really good.  There's a reason the franchise survived 50 years and used to be a cult favourite in the sci-fi community.  A reason since its modern reboot it was a worldwide franchise.  

True, the franchise has never had brilliance in every episode (cept for series 5), but it always managed to at least produce consistent 8 and 9's for the important episodes in every season.  

I stand by my remarks about subtlety.  Series 11 was about as subtle as reading a highly politicised opinion piece, the older series are absolutely subtle in comparison.  That isn't to say they're subtle, but they don't hammer the viewer over the head with political agenda's, they tell stories first and slip in that stuff every now and again second.  Which is how it should be done.  

I challenge anyone that thinks series 11 isn't a stain on the franchise to rewatch a crash course of the show since its reboot.  Series 1's Rose, Dalek, and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Series 2's The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit and Army of Ghosts, Series 3's Gridlock, Human Nature/Family of Blood, and Blink.  Series 4's Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead, and Midnight.  Series 5's The Eleventh Hour and Vincent and the Doctor, and The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang.  Series 6's A Christmas Carol and The Impossible Astronaught/Day of the Moon.  Series 7's Day of the Doctor.  Series 8's Deep Breath and Dark Water/Death in Heaven.  And series 9's The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar and lastly Heaven Sent.  

Not a single episode in series 11 comes close to any of those episodes.  Hell I could have listed at least another two dozen episodes.  Even stinkers like Love and Monsters were more entertaining to watch than anything in series 11.  

And with that I can very safely say I'm done with anything past Capaldi.  I do not consider series 11 the same franchise (judging by some of the interviews floating around the feeling is mutual anyway.  We'll see how long the franchise can survive pandering to certain political factions while disowning its loyal fanbase), and absolutely nothing short of a decent showrunner and very clear attempts to course-correct will bring me back.  Indeed if series 11 hadn't been titled Doctor Who I wouldn't have watched past its first episode (and several people I know irl who are far more into social politics than I am didn't even bother returning for the second one).  No, that means I won't be returning to see them

New Years spoilers:

I will however happily continue my rewatch, I'm back on the train now midway through series 3 and I suspect I'll be chipping away at it until I hit series 10 (which will be all-new for me, thanks birthday for the final bluray set for the collection!).  It's funny, I used to think of series 2 as the best of Ten's era, but I'm starting to feel like series 3 might actually be the most consistently fantastic of his run.  Gridlock was brilliant stuff, Smith and Jones/The Shakespear Code were a ton of fun, and there's at least six more top tier episodes in the season.  I just wish the unrequited love subplot had been binned early into the season, it's the only bad thing about it.

Actually I probably lie. I won't be done with the series. I think I'll start chasing down Classic Who instead! Pertwee and Baker were great in the four stories I've seen them in, would love to see their eras more comprehensively.