Super Non-Stop Debate

Well there's no real rules to a debate and you said Spider-Man over Batman and to me Batman is better due to his multimedia.

My Nintendo is better than Club Nintendo. #threadnecromancer

It could be down the line - maybe when they bring out Switch stuff - but there's not enough tat on there just now! #IWantWorthlessTat

Well I've already acquired some stuff from MN (themes and LoZTPicross), which is more than I basically ever did with CN, so yes by default I suppose.

Not yet, because I got a lot of stuff like free games and a Mario hat from the club. I'm sure it will be leapfrogged soon enough.

I'm with Drunka on this one. For me, physical rewards are better than digital ones: although they've been more immediate (Zelda Picross and the 3DS HOME themes), they've not been as much fun as the Wii SNES controller.

Does anyone want to start another debate?

Right, what do we all think of the Polish?

The Polish Society take over the local pool club every first Wednesday of the month for a tournament. I would like to go and show them how much better I am than them, but I don't hold a polish passport.(Which I assume is a requirement)

The Polish really brings up the Shine on the Shoes. This pleases me.

I got no problem with the polish at all offisher, I was jusht running to catch up with my friendsh you shee, we are on an evening conshtitushinal.

Reading that hurt my ears

I will give a serious answer, like most people some are top lads and ladettes, then some aren't, just like anyone else.

Not the 3DS / Switch or even reviews scores but one that has been talked about over the last week and Jas posted a reply to me in the last game I finished thread, sort of the topic.

If you don't know, I'm talking Single Player / Story this comes from a article about games being better without stories and a game I just finished What Remains of Edith Finch was brought as its not a game but a interactive story, I think they called it.

Also this past week Phill Spencer talked about Single Player games now being irrelevant and service based games are the future.

The question of the debate are Single Player games irrelevant and is story not important?

I agree there's a debate to be had here, but not when phrased like that!  'Is story important?'  Yes, in some types of games.  'Are single-player games irrelevant?'  Absolutely not, if he did say that then Spencer can get shafted.  'Can a game be a good game if it has a good story but actively bad gameplay?'  Now we're getting somewhere.

Regardless, I'm up for a debate about the merits of story vs. gameplay.  Albeit I reckon a good few of us will end up on the gameplay side of the fence, just because we're here, and Nintendo have always been about the gameplay first and foremost.  See their flagship franchise, which tells an epic tale of a plumber rescuing a princess from a dragon-turtle.  Several times.

Just tried to word it how the article that was going (I'll share a link) around and Spencer talked about it all.

Games are holistic experiences.

That experience might rely on a very simple plot, like a plumber travelling to rescue a princess, but make it interesting through the environments and encounters along the way. In such a case, the experience would not necessarily be improved very much through more dialogue or better writing, but it can be lessened if anything is done to less the sense of progression. See, for example, the difference between playing through Super Mario Bros and simply playing a similar number of levels from Super Mario Maker.

On the other hand, some games are all about the scripted story. I often find the quick time events in Telltale games to be detracting from the overall experience, and there is a contingent of players who would prefer to not bother with the combat in Bioware games. Although I like Mass Effect’s shooting, I do believe the story it tells is hurt by the fact that Commander Shepard can literally never solve a problem without violence. Ludonarrative dissonance is a thing, and when it’s avoided the “gameplay” and “story” are both improved, because they are two sides of the same coin.

In each of these examples, the game has a story and it is a major part of the experience but they are very different examples. I also think it is very fair to say that there is an audience out there hankering for these single-player experiences. I don’t think “gameplay versus story” is a thing, I just think there are different kinds of story. Mario’s gameplay is a way of the player creating their own stories, and the framing narrative enhances that.

There is also a market for multiplayer-focused or casual games. Some people might only have short times in which to play games, or have limited funds and want to buy one game and play it indefinitely. Some people want to play with their friends so they can enjoy gaming while still socialising. Because of all these factors, as well as the nature of these games opening them up to future monetisation, multiplayer focused efforts are an appetising prospect to publishers who are facing ballooning budgets in the industry.

Because of this, I did say originally that it makes financial sense to concentrate on multiplayer but it is artistically lesser. I think it is very telling that all the particularly interesting single-player experiences are coming from the indie space at the moment, while big budget titles push for cheap thrills. (Nintendo, by not moving into the modern power bloat, have deftly side-stepped this issue and continue to put out creative content.)

I would like to add, though, that story can be a contributing factor in multiplayer games. Look at Street Fighter and Overwatch to see how important characterisation is. Look at how invested people were in Mass Effect 3’s multiplayer because of the clever integration with the plot, or how exciting it is to play fairly generic massive online shooter battles in the Star Wars universe.

Games can be enjoyed on a purely interactive levels, akin to going outside for a kickabout or fiddling with a Rubik’s cube. Human beings, though, naturally understand our world through storytelling. Every football season or Mario Kart cup has heroes and villains, underdogs, struggles and triumphs – even when they’re not really there. When a puzzle bests us, we naturally anthropomorphosise it and it becomes our enemy.

I believe games have the potential to be the next great storytelling medium. I think they can allow one to have insight into someone else’s situation like nothing else can, not even a book. I also think even the shallowest games are enhanced by some sense of a beginning, middle and end. Good gameplay is good storytelling. Bad gameplay is part of the story. A well-written film wouldn’t be considered a good story if it featured multiple long, tedious action sections, so neither should a game.

Games like Breath of the Wild and The Witcher 3 just go to show that single player games are dead. How the cucksjw am I meant to play a game without the advice of some rando screaming down a microphone with the sensitivity turned up far too high?

Story. What a joke! I go to bed without someone reading for me thank you very much, why would I want a game to do that? I only care about objective things like ping, frame rate, lag compensation, resolution and review scores by websites that don't let their personal opinions affect their reviews!

I don't know if Drunka has read the article but it is great reply from if he did or didn't but here it is for those that do want to read and USGamer had this great article as a sort of reply along this with from Kinda Funny which is rather good.

I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about already on here with it being all over social media for a day or two and I think likes of Scullion talked about it and even likes of Neil Druckmann (the lead of The Last of Us and Uncharted 4) who has been getting stick recently about him having a agenda be it political or Ellie being gay and games shouldn't have that, why shouldn't they have that as other mediums have that.

Now I don't know but if I was Neil, Kojima, Hennig, Levine who are known for great stories in games and saw stuff like this then I might be a bit cheesed off with all this even if the original article does have some points but for me I love those type of games and is another medium we can have along with films, books, tv and films.

Not just DOOM with you're a white dude who kills demons, which will appease some people but then some will be going where's the story, why aren't I playing as a gay black women etc

Games should be able as wide and varied as any other form, if you want to make DOOM and play them only great and if you want to make and play Gone Home also great.

masofdas wrote:

I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about already on here with it being all over social media for a day or two and I think likes of Scullion talked about it and even likes of Neil Druckmann (the lead of The Last of Us and Uncharted 4) who has been getting stick recently about him having a agenda be it political or Ellie being gay and games shouldn't have that, why shouldn't they have that as other mediums have that.

I'm not surprised we haven't discussed that, because no-one here is an arsehole and we don't have much time for people who are. If we stopped and talked about every whiny pissbaby who thinks media covering an interesting topic will mean he has fewer idiotic male power fantasies to enjoy, we'd never have time to talk about anything else.

masofdas wrote:

Games should be able as wide and varied as any other form, if you want to make DOOM and play them only great and if you want to make and play Gone Home also great.

Yeah you are right Drunka.

Just wanted to bring up Mr Spencer again as I didn't really reply to Balla about it.

Basically he did a interview on where he thinks gaming are going, he talked the Netflix model which if you back on old posts on here I did say that is where I see Xbox going due to the Xbox One announcement, Xbox Anywhere and now Game Pass.

He went on to say Single Player games are becoming more irrelevant and people liking Zelda and Horizon doesn't mean the Single Player genre is health. He brought up games need to look at the service model to be viable and he pointed to the likes of Overwatches success.

I like Spencer and how I'm taking what he is saying, is that Xbox is about service and I do think the Xbox after Scorpio will be a digital service only based machine. He has since tweeted replies to fans (which I like he does this) about all this he said stuff like just because some games are popular we shouldn't kid ourselves that the genre is healthy, he also said they are still going to do single player games but need to look at a different strategy going forward.

The best one though is he tweeted he's not anti-single player as he played Zelda on his Switch on a plane trip which he since deleted.

Sounds like Phil Spencer is a silly man. They should have put Kirstie Allsop in charge instead.

Are single player games irrelevant? No, because of all of the single player games that people play.
!=(Isn't story not unimportant)? Uh........................ I tried to answer this several times in a row... actually I don't think it's the right question; if it's an RPG, it'll have a story. Is a good story important? Not entirely - you can have a good game where the story is a bit bobbins. Likewise, I've played dull crap because I wanted to know what the next dialog window would say. However, I think the latter situation is less tolerable.

I think Mr Spencer is talking sellzzz though Jim.

He has said when talking Zelda and Horizon, that people like those but doesn't mean the genre is healthy. I think where he is coming from is those two games have sold around 3.5m each.

Zelda, that's great number because really it's a Switch game and they're are a limited number of Switches in the wild.
Horizon, a new IP from a decentish studio but not one you could really you in advertising like you could Naught Dog & The Last of Us.

Now another game which has sold 3.5m is Resident Evil 7 which by Capcoms own words has been a commercial disappointment as it hasn't reached their 5m target. I don't know why 5m was the target, it could be for numerous reason, yet Capcom are now re-evaluating the series again.

Spencer will have better knowledge of game sells numbers and targets then us lot, he has also spoke about when Scalebound was cancelled & Lionhead was shut down that they (MS) can't keep investing in things with no return.

If you look at the Xbox One exclusive/deals part from the big three Halo, Gears, Forza only 3 games have done over a million, I don't know if those were profitable or not. MS you would have thought paid rather a lot to get Rise of the Tomb Raider (the best selling one of the 3 games) exclusive for a year for it to only do 1.5m and since the PS4 version has out sold it.

And remember Square back when Tomb Raider 2013 came out that did 4.2m on PS360, seems a great number yet it didn't meet exceptions either then the sequel has sold even less, will this change the next Tomb Raider game.

Where he is likely looking at a Destiny which has sold over 17m copies (this includes collection etc) and then how many people have bought in game stuff, the season passes and so on.

DOOM (2016) Single Player focused shooter 3m Vs Destiny a Social Service like Shooter 17m.

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On the story in games, I think to go one further then what you are saying Jim. If I gave you Super Mario Galaxy to play in some random level for 5 minutes, you would enjoy it with no story context due to the gameplay but if I gave you Gone Home and did the same, you'd be like what's going on and what is this crap due to the gameplay and having no context of the story.

I think like you said some games it can be bobbins and that be fine but some need it.

This house believes that releasing games without their full feature set at launch is OK.

As long as there's a playable component of the game at launch, then adding features and elements later is perfectly acceptable. It increases the game's value with early adopters and can give the title that precious long tail of sales as more and more people are tempted on board. This new wave of players keeps the game in people's thoughts, both on the Internet and through word of mouth. It's really a win-win all round.

My view is that as long as there's clear communication over what's being offered, the consumer can then choose happily enough and it is, indeed, win-win.  I'd say that the Splatoon games have communicated their 'games as service' aspect well, but Street Fighter V, for example, may not have.

There is, now I think about it, a caveat.  A game must release with its main one-player mode(s).  If it's a game that relies on multiplayer, it must also release with its main local and online multiplayer options.  Regardless of the best communication in the world, players will pick up the game expecting these features to be there.  If they're not, they may rightfully feel short-changed.

To pick an example: I would expect a Mario Kart game to release with Grand Prix, Time Trials, Local Multiplayer, and Online Multiplayer.  If however Nintendo wanted to add the Battle Mode, or Mission Mode (bring back Mission Mode!), at a later point, I wouldn't feel too short-changed because these are almost 'extra modes'.  Nobody buys a Mario Kart game for Battle Mode.  Nor would I mind retro tracks, say, being a later addition. But they'd need to let me know about that well in advance, rather than in a size-five font 'Coming Soon!' on the box.


TL;DR: A game must release with the things people buy it for, and anything to be added later must be clearly communicated as such.

This sort of goes back to the previous debate with games as a service being the thing now, I think this works for a lot of games now and I'm fine buying a Overwatch or Splatoon 2 knowing it will be game that grows overtime with the community and stuff added to them.

However games as a service is the only games I think this works for, I wouldn't be happy if Super Mario Odyssey was missing the last world and Nintendo patched it in later for instance.

I think it works for shooters both first and third person with a focus on multiplayer, fighting, racing, music, rpgs, mmos and I would say sports but I can't see EA just bringing out FIFA Football and just updating it for ever.