Nintendo NX -> Nintendo Switch (Switchcraft)

Of course it was an attempt to convince you, despite what Zero says that is a large part of what debates are. Especially when it's a reaction to breaking news and about something objectively measurable (the future performance of a company) rather than a subjective opinion on a piece of entertainment.

Zelda being delayed in the short-term means a longer wait for fans, which is bad. In the long-term it means a better, more polished game. So yes, in the long-term a delayed Zelda is not a negative. Still annoying right now of course when we all want to play the game!

E3 is an event of generally dwindling importance that only attracts attention from the core gaming audience, but it does still hold weight. As I said though, the WiiU suffered because of its E3 reveal rather than gaining from it. It wouldn't seem far-fetched to think that Nintendo are trying to avoid repeating that mistake. With a release of March 2017 I do think that avoiding E3 for a later reveal will be a positive for Nintendo for reasons previously stated. Nintendo have previously had a diminished presence at E3 and I don't think it has worked out badly for them. As a fan of the spectacle I miss the live conferences, but they've made the Nintendo Directs and other revised E3 content work for them.

And I didn't call you crazy - even sane people have crazy thoughts, and thinking an apology would be good for Nintendo is one of them.

The_Jaster wrote:

That's why I think a Feb/March launch is more feasible.

I called it on the NX launch period.

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A little surprised of a no show at E3 but this only makes me think that they are taking the time to get it right & that perhaps the wii U still has a few surprises left in it yet.

I wouldn't say it was specifically an E3 reveal that harmed the Wii U, as much as making it appear like it was only a control and not showing off the box for no apparent reason

Oh yeah, definitely

But it kind of demonstrated that Nintendo just aren't very good at E3 reveals

Fair enough about the first bit of the last comment OR (EDIT of your previous post), even if I disagree with you about all of the rest (including the second bit of that comment, it's the sort of thing Iwata would have done and it warmed me to the man, the only crazy thing is thinking that Kimishima would actually do it (which I didn't)).  

Generally, I agree with Zero that attempting to convince someone over the Internet is a pointless task.  Unless you're incredibly subtle about it, it's more likely to result in defensiveness at best, and page upon page of pointless back-and-forth at worst.  That's not to say I don't do it occasionally, but more out of anger than any rational hope.

(EDIT: ...shit.)

Anyway, I understand your points now, although I still disagree with them.  Only thing I'd say is that we may have had different things in mind regarding E3.  I was thinking the entire period, Nintendo Directs and all.  The wording of the statement suggests that the NX will not appear either in LA or in something held during the E3 period.  Despite the success of 2014's Nintendo showing, I think that the NX would be better off appearing live; but never seriously thought that would happen, not with Nintendo as they are now.  It's the lack of any NX presence at all that I feel is borderline catastrophic.

(Yes that is an exaggeration, inasmuch as I don't expect the non-reveal of the NX to cause landslides or firestorms or the extinction of the Red Admiral butterfly.)

For me, I'd be fine with Nintendo delaying the NX until 2017 if they had a strong line-up of Wii U games scheduled for release in the interim. The issue, of course, is that they'll not have a strong line-up of Wii U games scheduled for release in the interim. It looks finished, a year before Zelda Wii U is even coming out.

Keeping the NX off until 2017 is probably a decision that hasn't been taken lightly. That said, I think I'm being reasonable to expect Nintendo to have a NX launch line-up of legendary proportions, ready for March 2017. And it better be ready - none of this pish that they did with the Wii U when it launched, where the eShop was empty and half the peripherals weren't out yet. That was a disasterous launch. 'The issue, of course', is that I'm talking about Nintendo; they'll find a way of making a right bollocks of the whole thing. It's inevitable, they're a shambles.

OrangeRakoon wrote:

Apart from maybe making sure the game is good and ready? Time again for that well known Shigsy quote I think...

Given some of the most uninspired instalments were the ones they spent forever delaying and the best and most original ones were "rushed" I don't put a single ounce of a stock in that statement of his.  There's also Gran Turismo 5 which is the single biggest counterpoint to the idea delays are inherently a good thing (well, biggest counterpoint that wasn't a critical and commercial flop at any rate).

In fact sometimes rushing a game makes it better, it forces the development team to focus on what actually matters to them and forces them to trim the redundant fat.

As for Zelda U, I highly doubt that a delay at this point makes any actual difference to the game itself.  The game itself is likely either almost entirely finished or it's so badly off schedule a couple of extra months has absolutely no chance fixing it.  Lets face the reality here, this delay isn't so they can finish the game up and make it better, it's entirely to make it a launch title for the NX, a move that utterly spits in the face off any and every Wii U buyer as for the longest time Zelda U was supposed to be the killer app of the system.  

It also makes the Wii U the only system ever to not get its own Zelda, which is another insult.

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The fact Nintendo continues to live in their delusional little world that they can ignore E3 and expect to hit the big time is depressing.  Or it would be if I had any remote faith that they know what they're doing commercially, which ignoring the holiday season to release in a period notorious for people having the least money to spare in the entire year does the opposite of instilling.

And Nintendo can act like they're not in competition with Microsoft and Sony all they like, doesn't make it remotely true.  While it may be true that they aren't in direct competition they do fight them for relevancy, and that is a battle they are not only losing but doing everything in their power to lack.  Maybe a few years ago when their name was still relevant to a large market they could actually skive off E3 and still reach a large majority of people, but this is four years after the Wii and the only people who care about Nintendo now are the die-hards, part of being successful, a very large part, is exposure.  

Nintendo seem intent on retreating in to some sort of strange secluded bubble, and it will end in tears for them if they continue.  I personally am at the end of my patience with them.

Cappa puts it better than I could.  The real issue from a Ninty fan perspective isn't the delay of the NX, or Zelda U, but the dearth of anything else in the meantime.  That and the non-E3.

Put it this way: if the NX launches with Zelda U, Wii Sports Xcellent, Super Mario 128, and Mother 1-4 HD, I'd just about forgive them having nothing to play for the rest of this year.


As for Athrun's post, the Wii U not having its own Zelda pretty much does make it The Worst Nintendo Console Ever (again, exaggeration, the Wii U hasn't given me a migraine yet).  While I agree with Shigsy's mantra most of the time, that only applies when there's a stash of other games to divert attention away from the one that's being perfected.  See above.

balla wrote:

Cappa puts it better than I could. The real issue from a Ninty fan perspective isn't the delay of the NX, or Zelda U, but the dearth of anything else in the meantime. That and the non-E3.

I know they've said that only Zelda U is playable at E3 but surely they must have other things to at least show off? For some reason my mind instantly jumps to Splatoon 2 being one of those.

You've got to wonder though. How much effort are they going to put into this dying console? I'm expecting maybe one big-ish game during that period, which I reckon might be Sticker Star 2. Nintendo don't tend to support their home consoles into their twilights - remember the Gamecube? This has died faster than that did.

I hope you're right, Jas, I really do. It's just, well,

The Cappuccino Kid wrote:

'The issue, of course', is that I'm talking about Nintendo; they'll find a way of making a right bollocks of the whole thing. It's inevitable, they're a shambles.

Yeah I hear you but I guess I'm not as worried as everyone else seems to be, the fact this info came from an investors meeting says it all really & how some Nintendo fans care a bit more than they actually should.

I don't think that, at this stage, Nintendo would manage many of their resources towards Wii U projects. I'd maybe expect a port of an old 3DS or GameCube game at best, and maybe some DLC for a current game if we're lucky, but I definitely wouldn't be expecting Splatoon 2. I'd love for them to do otherwise, but I think that's a good shout for the NX launch, after Christmas.

It might not a be good thing to say but when SEGA killed the Saturn off, they had no console or games on the market for nearly 16 months but then the Dreamcast had the best launch line-up ever and some great games within the first year.

That having only at the moment Paper Mario to come out after June might not be great for the Wii U but it's not like with gap between the Saturn & Dreamcast as there will be still Nintendo games on the 3DS and hopefully something will still to come to the Wii U maybe a half-arsed Mario Golf and the Indies of course.

And that's what I'm hoping now that day oners like gJones have games at launch and stuff to look forward to and hopefully not ports of 6 - 12 months old games.

The_Jaster wrote:

Yeah I hear you but I guess I'm not as worried as everyone else seems to be, the fact this info came from an investors meeting says it all really & how some Nintendo fans care a bit more than they actually should.

That's actually another problem, Nintendo built up a scene of keeping people clued in, and they've now completely abandoned it. They're shutting themselves out of the only times in the year where they have mass-market exposure, and at the same time they're keeping what very few fans they have left in the dark, leaving them to scramble at the tiniest bit of information they can get.  

Their current way of doing things makes zero sense and it goes contrary to all methods for setting oneself up for a success.  No e3 for the new system is absolutely and utterly baffling, and unless they've got a seriously clever plan up their sleeves (which I very much doubt), the future is looking very dim, nay, dark, for Nintendo.

Cappa nails it - if the trade-off is the launch titles of the gods for the NX, with everything perfectly ready, that will be good enough for me. Personally, as I think I've mentioned elsewhere, that'd be Super Mario Galaxy 3, the Batman Trilogy and Pokemon Rainbow.

Mentioning the Batman trilogy 'neatly' 'segues' into my next point: it's got to have a good third party showing, and not just to attract gamers who wouldn't normally be Nintendo fans. Nintendo fans themselves have lacked things that could easily have been ported to the Wii U, just because there isn't the userbase to justify the cost of doing so. Do it.

Third paragraph. Nintendo must be really confident in the NX to launch it in March.

Finally, got to side with Cappa again: it's Nintendo, they'll mess it up somehow.

All that said...

My worries regarding Ninty are more that they'll go towards the mobile end of the market, or just... continue to blunder along incompetently. Not that it'll die.

Nintendoomed?  More like NXoomed!

Spoiler:

Athrun888 wrote:

The_Jaster wrote:

Yeah I hear you but I guess I'm not as worried as everyone else seems to be, the fact this info came from an investors meeting says it all really & how some Nintendo fans care a bit more than they actually should.

That's actually another problem, Nintendo built up a scene of keeping people clued in, and they've now completely abandoned it. They're shutting themselves out of the only times in the year where they have mass-market exposure, and at the same time they're keeping what very few fans they have left in the dark, leaving them to scramble at the tiniest bit of information they can get.  

Their current way of doing things makes zero sense and it goes contrary to all methods for setting oneself up for a success.  No e3 for the new system is absolutely and utterly baffling, and unless they've got a seriously clever plan up their sleeves (which I very much doubt), the future is looking very dim, nay, dark, for Nintendo.

Yet despite the way it looks they have been quite a successful company over the years (despite weak wii U sales isn't a profit still made from each unit sold?) but I guess everyone else and their grandma knows better eh? Perhaps they'll have a separate live event post E3 for the NX or just continue with the Nintendo Directs which gain a tonne of exposure through social media etc. nobody knows at this present time.

I just feel that with them forgoing an NX reveal at e3 then they have to be confident in the plan they have maybe it's a massive mistake maybe it's not but I just find it bizarre that people are already talking like the failure (of NX) is a foregone conclusion.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but I absolutely do believe that Ninty aren't giving it the best chance at life by missing out on two big commercial opportunities: holiday season and E3. Also I feel that not displaying the NX at E3 displays a lack of confidence rather than the opposite: a worry that they'll be overshadowed, or deliver a shiter of a presentation (2008, 2011, 2015 all spring to mind).

That said, as long as they use this extra time to deliver Zelda U, Wii Sports Xcellent, Super Mario 128, and Mother 1-4 HD at launch, and deliver the right message this time, and don't get Rufus Hound involved, it'll do better than the Wii U. Then again, Sony could release a literal lump of dog faeces as the PS8 and it'd do better than the Wii U.

Let's be honest, three consoles directly competing has never worked particularly well for all involved. As much as I'd like a £300 Nintendo console with both Super Mario Galaxy 3 and Dark Souls 4, it'll be a headache for developers because you know Nintendo will have some awkward controller to work around. If the Wii-U wasn’t called the Wii-U, and launched with the Pro controller, I think it may have fared slightly better than it did, but the problem Nintendo now has is a generation of 20-year olds that have grown up with their only exposure to Nintendo home consoles being the Wii and it’s tablet-controllered sequel. People who ploughed hundreds of hours into their PS3s or Xbox 360s and don’t particularly care for Nintendo’s first-party output. A lot of people bought an N64 for Goldeneye. A lot of people bought a Gamecube for the Resident Evil series. Nintendo could do with an exclusive AAA title at launch for the NX, (which they did try with Zombi-U) but even if they had Grand Theft Auto NX at launch, I don’t think it would get people to make the switch from Xbox/Playstation to Nintendo. It has to be either a complementary system alongside (cheaper), or a system aimed at a different audience (families). The Wii-U was a bit of both.

On a nostalgic note, I still wish Nintendo would have purchased SEGA (or made them second-party or something) if only to mop up the SEGA fans that broke off three separate ways in the early 2000s, but also to provide them such much-needed muscle with regards to software output. Selling Rare as well was a tactical decision from Microsoft, looking back on it.

Balladeer wrote:

It's not a foregone conclusion, but I absolutely do believe that Ninty aren't giving it the best chance at life by missing out on two big commercial opportunities: holiday season and E3.  Also I feel that not displaying the NX at E3 displays a lack of confidence rather than the opposite: a worry that they'll be overshadowed, or deliver a shiter of a presentation (2008, 2011, 2015 all spring to mind).

That said, as long as they use this extra time to deliver Zelda U, Wii Sports Xcellent, Super Mario 128, and Mother 1-4 HD at launch, and deliver the right message this time, and don't get Rufus Hound involved, it'll do better than the Wii U.  Then again, Sony could release a literal lump of dog faeces as the PS8 and it'd do better than the Wii U.

Fair enough & I know you guys don't mean it's a guaranteed failure, I'm just tired of all the doom & gloom aimed at Nintendo which is just the same shite that's been spouted for decades now. Also remember when folk thought Nintendo were crazy to not have a live conference at E3? Last years digital event video aside the new format with twitch live streams etc has worked well for them.

balladeer wrote:

That said, as long as they use this extra time to deliver Zelda U, Wii Sports Xcellent, Super Mario 128, and Mother 1-4 HD at launch

I reckon a launch like this would have been impossible to deliver if the NX were to arrive at Christmas.

Fair enough, and I'm sorry for being so miserable. Problem shared/halved and that, but I agree, it doesn't make for great reading if (like all of us) you're a fan of Nintendo. At the same time, I don't want to stick my head in the sand and pretend it's all okay. Ninty's kooky decisions could work, but I've weighed up the odds in my head and I'd rather gird myself against disappointment.

Last miserable thing I'll say: I don't think they'll have a launch line-up that good anyway.


RIGHT, this is the new happy Balladeer who is looking forward to the NX and Zelda U and things Ninty might bring out in the meantime!

There's a very VERY large difference between Nintendo's handling of last E3 and this one.  It cannot, cannot, be stressed enough just how much exposure E3 gets.  We're not talking news articles on gaming media outlets, which happen regardless, we're talking coverage in Australian morning breakfast shows (and I also cannot stress enough how small time those are).  E3 if you do it right gets exposure of your product to the very depths of the grass roots of society.

E3 is the place to be when you have new hardware, recent times have shown you can unveil it elsewhere, but the full presentation at E3 approach still cannot be topped.  The exposure it grants is something that quiet frankly only a moron would deny the chance of using.  This is especially important for Nintendo, because unlike four and a half years back where the public knew them as the makers of the smash hit Wii console they have since faded in to complete obscurity, they need as much exposure as possible right now.



As for this notion of giving Nintendo the benefit of the doubt, tell me, when in the last three years have they actually earned it?  They've made silly marketing mistake after silly marketing mistake, they've not earned that benefit of the doubt and optimism I'm seeing people around the net' say we should grant them.  

Naturally none of this means the system itself will flop although I personally would feel a hell of a lot better if they were turning up at E3, but right now I cannot be of any other view than that if the NX is a hit, it's in spite of Nintendo's choices, much like the 3DS was.

Before this year's E3, there were quite a few articles written, suggesting that the 1-shot Expo might be on its way out; strap lines along the lines of "Nintendo Directs might be the future"; "E3 is looking tired"; "Who cares who 'wins' E3". Then last year, there were 2 or 3 almost-revelatory conferences, the most obvious example being Sony's FF7/Shenmue/Last Guardian pant-shitter. Now E3 is important again. As Arthrun says, if it gets you on mainstream morning TV, it might be worth doing. However, the positive/negative nature - that kind of "it's not important it's not important it's not important IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT EVER" attitude means that, if you're not going to 'win' E3, it might not be worth spending a lot of money on it. So I can understand it being low-key to a certain extent.

However, there needs to be something else instead. And I don't know, unless there's a surprise direct, what that is. Nintendo do seem a little rudderless at the moment. They're a bit "Disney at the turn of the millenium" - it seems there is a shortage of ideas, and they run the risk of running people's nostalgia into the ground. What they need is a Pixar - "industry experts" have said this for a bit, but, in the void left by big third-parties, there should be more development studios contracted to them, filling in the gaps.

But they aren't doomed. We've just got to be a bit patient.

I still think that they'll be all right(ish) at E3. Everybody loves Zelda (except, er, me), and I'm sure Nintendo will announce a price drop for the Wii U. Drop it to £150 and chuck Mario Kart 8 in with it. That would be good press. Low-key, aye, but good all the same. Piece of piss.

Jimbob wrote:

they run the risk of running people's nostalgia into the ground

That too. I know that they're really good and all, but truthfully I'd be quite all right if I didn't see another 2D Mario game for another fifteen years.