Wrestling Discussion Thread

The Cappuccino Kid wrote:

Punk was the last heel that had any purpose as an antagonist (as well as a cheat and a coward), in my opinion.

I'd disagree with that - I think when Triple H wasn't playing his "oh I'm a cool sexy rebel heel, remember DX guys CHEER ME" card, he was a very effective antagonist. He really made me want to see Daniel Bryan cave his skull in with a running knee because of his cheating, manipulative ways.

But WWE does have a problem of its heels wanting to be "cool heels". Dolph Ziggler was the number one offender of this I reckon, but he's not alone in that. Bad News Barrett, Cesaro, Swagger - they all garner cheers from the crowd due to either their babyface moveset (the swing?) or having catchphrases which the crowd feels they should join in on. If Cesaro is truly meant to be a heel, and you'd think he is due to his association with Paul Heyman, then he should tease the swing but never do it. Heyman should distract his opponents allowing Cesaro to land an uppercut on an off-guard foe. Otherwise he's going down that dangerous "shades of grey" route.

Jay wrote:

If Cesaro is truly meant to be a heel, and you'd think he is due to his association with Paul Heyman, then he should tease the swing but never do it.

This.

Folk would even eventually get on his back asking why he's even called the "king of swing" heel by association is never a good thing, also I don't get why it wasn't a face push for him after his battle royal win.

The Cappuccino Kid wrote:

Am I supposed to boo Alberto Del Rio because he beats Big E Langston with superior skill and craft?

See this is where they need to a better job of establishing characters. Speaking in kayfabe, Alberto Del Rio is this rich aristocrat, yet nowadays he comes out, wearing his own t-shirt (more on that in a sec), flaps his hands about a bit, calls everyone "perro", wrestles a bit, and buggers off. Why am I supposed to hate this guy? If he's rich, he should be rubbing it in my face, letting me know he's rich. Why does he deal out his own beatings? He's got cash, get some heavies to do it, he could sit on some fancy chair on the stage with a couple of women beside him, sipping a glass of wine. He should only be wrestling when he fancies it.

Back to the t-shirt thing, I really hate when heels wear their own merch, I understand it's like a free advert for their stuff and they get a cut of sales (which is probably a big deal to a pro wrestler), but I find it quite damaging to their character. No matter how great a shirt someone like Damien Sandow has (which by the way, his shirt is awful, I don't believe the Sandow character would approve of using 'U' instead of 'you' on his 'I > U' shirt) he should never be wearing it.

Jeff Jarrett can fuck off, we're the ones who should be starting a wrestling company!



(Hoping all of this is on-point, I'll look like a right rambling twat if you've read all that while shaking your heads  )

Del Rio and Sandow have suffered from a character assassination, for whatever reason. Remember when Sandow had his robe and he'd cut a condescending promo on his way to the ring? That was great! Now - wears his own crappy t-shirt, rarely gets mic time and jobs out every week. Remember when Del Rio would come to the ring in a series of fancy cars, wear suits all the time, get announced by his own personal ring announcer and then beat the shit out him if he lost? Great heel gimmick there - now, his gimmick is "I am Mexican, look at my scarf I sometimes wear". I just don't understand why their characters have been hindered so much.

Thought this would be of interest to several of you - a YouTuber has uploaded the WWE Network's Warrior: The Ultimate Legend trubute documentary. Simply superb - a must-watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCk-_02sybs&feature=youtu.be

So A Double and Angle were on Impact.

And like to give you this, only watch up-to about 4mins.


Looking at the background of this from 2006


And the whole Heel / Face thing didn't Vince say ages ago that WWE should stop thinking like that and just have guys how they are, hence ehy a more of a heel type Cesaro can still have some face elements and get off. This is the article I'm thinking of from Dec 2013.

Good old TNA, can't stop making references to WWE. Essentially what Dixie Carter said there is that there's another company out there who were able to harness and capitalise on something much better than we did, or ever could do.

Have a look at the new Evolution t-shirt - perhaps WWE's worst since the legendary ALWAYS POUNDING ASS:

http://shop.wwe.com/Evolution-%22Adapt-or-Perish%22-Authentic-T-Shirt/W07404,default,pd.html?dwvar_W07404_color=Black&start=2&cgid=New

~

As for RAW...

Spoiler:

WWE released that awful Evolution shirt on the same day they released this pretty good Wyatt Family shirt.  http://shop.wwe.com/Wyatt-Family-%22Family-of-Freaks%22-Authentic-T-Shirt/W07398,default,pd.html?dwvar_W07398_color=Silver&start=6&cgid=New


As for recent WWE output, it's weird how usually WrestleMania is the disappointing show and then the following weeks TV is quite exciting, this year we have things the other way around. A few random thoughts: I couldn't give a stuff about Evolution. They're not as good a group as WWE are pretending they are, and they never were. Sounds like Batista is clearing off for a bit after Extreme Rules, so hopefully this run will be short-lived. IC title tournament is enjoyable enough, Big E's reign has been a complete flop really. As was mentioned earlier, with no reason to care about Big E, and him being booked lousily for the last six weeks or so: why should we care? What the hell is Cesaro? He comes out (with new lousy music, urgh), his manager cuts a heel promo, he wrestles a heel match, then his old partner comes out and costs him the match, then he switches to being a babyface while teasing about giving the Giant Swing to his old manager(!) - I just don't get the direction they're going with him.

I'm really not enjoying the direction Cesaro is heading in. Shades of grey does not work in wrestling - it just confuses fans. Cesaro can't be a situational heel or babyface, but he needs solid direction. Also, his new theme is shite.

Missed the new music. I liked the 'Sound The Alarm, There's Poop In This Chair', old Dean Malenko theme remix.

I remember we discussed who we'd turn face and who we'd turn heel a while back, and Cesaro was my #1 super babyface. Mind, can't really complain bout being directly associated with Paul Heyman...

Here's his new theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEjNFm-uU50

Horrendous - like a cross between a 90s Raw opening theme and a jobber's theme.

I remember reading that WWE changed his name from Antonio Cesaro to plain old Cesaro as Vince McMahon didn't think Antonio sounded menacing. At least that sounds moderately menacing...although it doesn't really suit him, does it? Better than yodeling on the way to the ring.

I think Alexander Rusev's theme was a better fit for Cesaro than that atrocity. But yeah, anything is better than yodelling to the ring. What were they thinking with that?

I actually think one of the best themes being used in the company right now is the one he shared with Jack Swagger.

Rusev has a good theme. Does Xavier Woods still use his Time To Get Funky theme? That's the bollocks. It's a real mix between good and rubbish for a lot of the themes the now.

I think the best theme going right now is Paige's. Really suits her.

I much prefer Paige's NXT theme, as I have with a lot of NXT wrestlers who've gone on to Raw, I'm sure Xavier Woods came out to Brodus Clay's theme recently as well, no idea why.

Didn't think Scottish pro wrestling booking got much odder than AJ Styles at Ayr swimming baths, but it did: here's Mitsuharu Misawa - arguably the greatest heavyweight champion of all time - wrestling in a school assembly hall in the Lanarkshire countryside. I'm flabbergasted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VqbbpXby-k&feature=youtu.be

EDIT: Fuck it, another video. I've probably linked this before, but here's Bobby Heenan's greatest commentary performance. You need to watch it from start to finish. Excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afNOqwJrT8s

I was reading an old interview with ex-SmackDown writer David Lagana recently, who felt that Mr. Kennedy and MVP should have been bigger stars in WWE than they actually were allowed to become. That was the 'next generation' back in the late 2000s...it got me thinking that we're in a similar situation right now, with all the guys who were predicted to be 'the future stars of wrestling' back in 2009-2011 being used as filler (like Wade Barrett, Alberto Del Rio, Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes), enhancement talent (such as R-Truth, Curtis Axel, Kofi Kingston, Justin Gabriel, Zack Ryder), or, worse, not at all (folk like Ted DiBiase, Ezekiel Jackson, Evan Bourne).

Fair enough, a few guys from that time broke away from the pack - I'm thinking Daniel Bryan and the old Husky Harris - but as for all the rest I've mentioned, despite all their talents it almost feels like they're largely dead wood and not today's 'stars' at all.

The Cappuccino Kid wrote:

with all the guys who were predicted to be 'the future stars of wrestling' back in 2009-2011 being used as filler (like Wade Barrett, Alberto Del Rio, Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes), enhancement talent (such as R-Truth, Curtis Axel, Kofi Kingston, Justin Gabriel, Zack Ryder), or, worse, not at all (folk like Ted DiBiase, Ezekiel Jackson, Evan Bourne).

Ted DiBiase and Ezekiel Jackson have left the company, but your point stands there. I still think Wade Barrett and Cody Rhodes will have their moments. Barrett's really getting a huge push right now, and I'd be surprised if he didn't leave Extreme Rules as IC champ. Cody's still young, so I wouldn't write him off yet either.

Does the IC title matter all that much? Look where the guy who held it this time last year is...

(if you can even remember - I had to think about it!)

It does now. It's the second highest singles belt in the company, and they've spent the past few weeks raising it up with a tourney full of upper midcard guys. Last year it was the third-tier title, so Wade holding it then didn't mean much. It was like the European Championship of the Attitude Era, or Dean Ambrose's permanent prop the US title.

All of that IC stuff will be for nothing if Barrett wins it & it goes no where after that, that title needs intersting feuds to get it back to where it used to be.

It should be mandatory for all titles to be defended at PPVs as well.

Yeah but then night of champions is a silly named ppv well is any way as we had noun championship matches there.

Agree with both of you IC is now 2nd tier and will have guys like ADR, RVD, Christian, Sheamus but needs a decent story to back it up.

On the USA title which like you said is the third tier, but has had some decent holder's even in WWE when it was a smackdown only title with the longest reign being MVP which Ambrose will equal tomorrow. Not sure if that's just WWE or includes WCW history as well.

masofdas wrote:

On the USA title which like you said is the third tier, but has had some decent holder's even in WWE when it was a smackdown only title with the longest reign being MVP which Ambrose will equal tomorrow. Not sure if that's just WWE or includes WCW history as well.

Just WWE - the longest reigning US champ ever, off the top of my head, is Rick Rude with some 500 odd days. They need to take the belt off Ambrose though - he's outgrown it. It'd be easy to put him into a massive gauntlet match with the Shield vs Authority storyline right now and have a Bo Dallas worm a victory over a battered and bruised Ambrose.