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| Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo | |
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Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Thu 20 Dec 2018 - 21:51 | |
| Glad I saw the best one then! (According to the Mas Spectrometer (that's possibly my best pun of the year, and yes I'm damn proud of it).) I've not seen many other new films this year, and wouldn't rightly be able to recommend The Incredibles 2. Still need to see Wreck-It Ralph 2, mind. |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 25 Dec 2018 - 16:33 | |
| Okay boys: best Christmas films? Muppets Christmas Carol is way out in front for me, but: Snowman? Gremlins? Die Hard? What are your faves? |
| | | JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15896 Points : 15061 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 25 Dec 2018 - 21:31 | |
| Hmm... it's a three way toss-up between Home Alone, Elf and Miracle on 34th Street for me. |
| | | Buskalilly Galactic Nova
Posts : 15082 Points : 15260 Join date : 2013-02-25 Age : 34 Location : Nagano
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Wed 26 Dec 2018 - 0:19 | |
| Die Hard and Elf are the two I always try to watch. My family are big fans of Arthur Christmas. |
| | | The_Jaster Din
Posts : 11972 Points : 12064 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 40 Location : Underground Corpse Pile.
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Wed 26 Dec 2018 - 0:32 | |
| Gremlins for me and while it isn't a Christmas film I like watching The Goonies around this time of year. |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Wed 26 Dec 2018 - 10:09 | |
| - Drunkalilly wrote:
- My family are big fans of Arthur Christmas.
How could I omit this? Banger. Admission: I've never seen any of Elf, Miracle on 34th Street, or any but the really iconic bits in Die Hard. |
| | | Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Thu 10 Jan 2019 - 12:13 | |
| That moment when Star Wars comes up in a discussion and afterwards you realise the last jedi was actually a pretty bad movie. I've been living a lie the last twelve months! |
| | | Buskalilly Galactic Nova
Posts : 15082 Points : 15260 Join date : 2013-02-25 Age : 34 Location : Nagano
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Fri 11 Jan 2019 - 0:44 | |
| The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars (although Ive also not seen it since the theatres so what do I know?) |
| | | Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Fri 11 Jan 2019 - 2:32 | |
| - Post 1:
It's an awful convoluted mess of a film. Very very pretty, but it doesn't make a drop of actual sense.
From the very opening of the film we're told "the First Order reigns". How? This movie starts at most a day after the conclusion of TFA, where the First Order lost Starkiller base. How did they go from losing such a structure and all of the losses of personnel and manpower that entailed (remember that Starkiller was basically a planet. Hell its got the word "base" in its name. They lost a planet-sized base.) to "reigning" in a matter of hours? I could believe that they'd sought immediate retrbution and had the resistance on the ropes in such a time, but reigning? No. That would imply they'd basically taken over the entire galaxy in the short time between the two movies, which they absolutely did not.
But okay, fine, the First order is in control. Fine. There's far more wrong in the opening five minutes than that one sentence (however said sentence is important to note, because it highlights the movie's big underlying flaw, that of inconsistency both with itself and with the franchise as a whole).
The movie kicks off with the FO coming out of lightspeed with several Star Destroyers and a particularly nasty one designed to be able to clear entire fleets and decimate ground bases. From the very way the scene is shot we see the First Order is in control of this little skirmish and the Resistance is at risk of being snuffed out.
So, they're fleeing the base. So far everything seems fine. Until you realise that the FO isn't doing anything. They're charging their big canons to fire at the ground. Why? The Resistance is trying to escape, why are you prioritising the ground base over the capital ship that could flee into Lightspeed at any second? Any vaguely competent startegist would be saying to prioritise the target that can flee first.
That's not the only problem. The Resistance is known for engaging with close-range fighters. And yet despite bringing several Destroyers and many platoons of TIE Fighters not a single bit of anti-fighter strategy is employed. Why did they bring all of these forces and then not launch anything when, as Hux says, they are these to snuff out the Resistance? These are not the strategies and tactics a force would employ when their goal is to snuff something out. They have all of these resources that could achieve this and they're using none of them.
So then we get a lone X-Wing approaching the ship Hux is on, Poe enters the fray. This scene doesn't make a lick of sense, and it sets a very bad tone for the rest of the movie to boot. Poe contacts Hux and essentially trolls him (ending in a "your mother" joke of all things). Now, here's why this scene doesn't work. As soon as Hux is on with poe he lets fly with a tirade about how they will destroy the resistance, how they have no intention or desire to parlay, accept surrender, or do anything besides wipe the lot of them out with extreme prejudice.
Okay, fine. If that is the plan why are you even talking to Poe, Hux? Why are you not shooting him down while he is in range of basically the entire Star Destroyers arsenol? Why do you even care about the insults Poe is slinging at you when you can and should have opened fire the moment he was in range?
Like I said, inconsistent. This is not how a competent enemy commander would behave. Hell we even have a juniour officer see through Poe's stunt, so why is Hux even in charge? He's portrayed as Kylo Ren's equal and the trilogies young Tarkin in TFA, and in this opening scene he has been portrayed as a extremely immature incompetent bufoon.
This is a very important thing to remember because it ties into why TLJ has set episode 9 up for failure, which I'll get to when I make my closing points.
- Post 2:
Poe's plan is then revealed as he destroys the Destroyers anti-ship weaponry so they can call in a fleet of bombers for a bombrun to take the thing out. And this is where I have to ask a very obvious question. Where are the Y-Wings? You know, those fighters designed to bomb things?
Remember we're still in the opening five minutes and already this is a dogs breakfast of inconsistency and style-without-substance.
So in come this fleet of extremely large, extremely slow, extremely weak bombers. Now Hux sorties the Tie Fighters. Not when they were supposed to be blockading the planet, not when a fighter blew up a Destroyers anti-fighter weaponry, no, only when a bunch of extremely slow bombers are closing in on them. How is Hux in command of this attack? He's been incompetent the entire time.
So the fighters engage the bombers, which turn out to be so rubbish that a Tie fighter crashing into one of them proceeds to take out three of them in a domino effect. Why have we gone from bombers capable of dog-fiighting enemy fighters to these pieces of trash? Why has technology decreased to the point even the Rebellion at their lowest outclassed them? Were the Resistance or were they not funded by the New Republic for years? Why are their forces so garbage now?
One bomber survives long enough to release its payload and destroy the Destroyer, and the resistance flees into Lightspeed. Hux gets humiliated by Snoke in front of everyone, in a scene that is stupid for the very simple fact that Snoke, a Force User known for mind-reading, put such an incompetent idiot in charge of the entire fleet. He only has himself to blame for this failure.
So, that's the end of the opening of the movie, and already we have inconsistencies and bad writing all over the place. Now, to the movie's credit I didn't think about any of this when I was actually watching the movie. It managed to put enough glitz and glamour that I wasn't even really using my brain while watching the movie. But now that I am applying my brain and powers of observation to it it completely falls apart. And the saddest part of this is that this was the best written part of the movie.
- Post 3:
So, onwards we go! Finn awakens from his medical coma after a spinal injury in the climax of the last film. And he . . . immediately gets up and walks around as if everything is fine...
Okay, lets get this clear. I would not find this scene unbelievable in the right context. This is a highly advanced universe and their medical abilities far exceed what we can imagine, hell we've had people lose hands and get robotic replacements as good as the real thing multiple times. I could easily buy that, with time, Finn would recover without an issue from his fight with Kylo.
Problem is it's been at best a day. remember that in Empire we start the movie off with Luke almost dying from cold related problems, and even he takes a lot of time in special tanks to heal. That was simply from the cold. Finn would need dramatic operations to his spine to recover from what Kylo did to him. And yet here he is, at best a day later (at worst a few hours) up and about as if nothing happened. Inconsistent, again.
So next we finally visit Rey, who last we saw was meeting Luke Skywalker for the first time, and proferred him his old Lightsaber. Now, remember what this Lightsaber represents. It was Anakin's, found its way to Luke via Kenobi, and lost in a life-changing duel with Darth Vader. It is steeped in the history of the entire Star Wars saga. And what happens to this artefact that holds so much history? It is tossed aside as a very cheap joke. "Oh, but the movie is about throwing away the past, that's the theme, so it's okay!" No, it definitely is not, and I'll get to why later. I have a lot to say about this, but it deserves its own section to attend to properly. And, again, at the time I didn't really think much on this, because I'd turned my brain off.
Now this might come as a shock, but I really don't have many issues with the montage of Luke getting on with his life with Rey lamely stalking him in a stubborn refusal to leave without training. There were some questionable choices in what happens (the infamous breast feeding milk scene.), but the purpose of the sequence is fine.
Meanwhile back at the resistance we get the first of many frustrating scenes involving Poe. And hoo boy was this a badly writen piece of crap right here. So, Poe gets dressed down by Leia for losing their fleet of bombers (given how trash they are compared to Y-Wings I honestly don't see them as a loss, but whatever). Poe did this because he felt that taking out one of the First Orders best ships was a fair trade, I'm inclined to align my views with him, but I can also understand Leia's point that everyone lost their lives doing it.
The issue with this is that Poe is lambasted over the course of the film for this. This is a very big issue. Why? Because moments later the First Order appears behind them with Snoke's own ship the Supremacy. We learn that the First Order can now track ships through hyperspace and essentially there is no way for them to flee them now.
So, remember that ship Poe destroyed? Yeah, see, here's why spending the entire film acting as if what he did was a bad thing is very very bad writing. If Poe hadn't destroyed that ship when he had the Resistance would be dead. It is established that the ship is a fleet killer, and so it is very clear that had Poe not destroyed it when he had the Destroyer would have proceeded to simply snipe the entire Resistance fleet after following them. In other words this movie would have ended twenty minutes in.
So, Poe saved the entire resistance and gets treated like crap for that for the entire movie. I get what they were trying to do. They were trying to make a parable about men being unable to accept women with authority and also trying to deconstruct the tropes of Star Wars and its penchant for heroics that see a lot of people die. However this has fallen flat on its face due to the fact that, had Poe not done what he did, nobody would be alive to lambaste him for it. And so we, the viewer, are treated to a cast so dumb they are completely unaware of this despite having all the facts. Meanwhile Poe becomes a beta to the point he doesn't even attempt to justify his actions.
It's just inconsistent and frustrating writing. Now, everything I've mentioned up to now isn't hard to fix, it isn't hard to catch, and it isn't irreparable by someone who knows what they're doing. So it speaks volumes that these issues were shot, put to film, and released to the public. The movie so far is illogical, irrational, and inconsistent. And we're only half an hour in and yet to see the worst of all of this.
- Post 4:
Okay, from here I'm going to stop doing blow-by-blows and just go through the big parts of the film piece by piece in vaguely-sequential order. Otherwise I'd be here all day and the giant posts I've made already would soon inflate to the size of a novella.
So, next up we have the infamous casina planet arc, and everyones favourite Star Wars character Rose! I'm not going to go into too much detail here, because even people that actually like TLJ acknowledge that this is the weakest part of the film and not very good. But hoo boy is this section bad. Lets ignore the ironic self-congratulatory self-indulgance of the entire setting, which is honestly hilarious because of how blind and lacking in self-awareness this film is. Let us instead focus on the fact that the entire sequence exists because of stupidity on the protagonists part.
They arrive on the planet and park their ship on the beach. Why? This is, last I checked, supposed to be a secret mission. And they just park on the beach? Come on, there had to be better and more logical ways to get Rose and Finn into jail to meet the hacker than this complete ineptitude of the pair of them.
This entire section is as on-the-nose as things can get. Rose is the definite highlight, with dialogue worthy of one Anakin Skywalker's course sand speech in Attack of the Clones. As is also the fact that the entire sequence is basically "rich people are bad and exploit the lower classes". Probably not the best thing to be trying to put in a Disney movie.
Next we have Leia's "death", and holy crap this entire sequence angers me. I'm not going to go over the fact that Leia would, factually, not have even survived being blown into space, much less reawakened after falling unconcious, and how stupid the cinematography was of her flying back to the ship.
No, what I'm going to criticise is that this is the scene Leia should have died. Carry Fisher is, unfortunately, no longer with us. So this was an obvious way to conclude her character and make a shocking point while doing so. This was the movies first chance to be genuinely subvertive of expectations, and it could have led to a plethora of genuinely satisfying things. But no, she survives, only to spend the movie in a coma and have a scene at the end with Luke, which as far as I can tell was the only reason she did in fact survive.
This leads to one "Admiral Holdo" taking over, and holy crap if the issues regarding Poe weren't bad enough before this character sends things into overdrive. Take notes people, because Holdo, along with Rey, should be examples of how not to write your female characters.
So, back to Rey and Luke. This entire section was a pisspoor thing that missed so much opportunity. This was supposed to be the part of the trilogy where Rey was finally developed as a character, where she was challenged both as a person and as a being of the Force, and she has neither. But the biggest thing is how unaware the movie is that it constantly teased Rey having an affinity to the Dark Side constantly.
Meanwhile Luke, we learn, has closed himself off from the Force (and yet he was still using it earlier, so... Yeah. Whoops. Maybe not have your character doing impossible things that require the Force?). And this is where my earlier statement about Leia dying being good comes in. Leia could have appeared before Luke as a ghost for an incredibly emotional scene, and that could have both prompted Luke to train Rey and reconnect with the Force. But no, nothing that clever or satisfying. Hell we're even denyed the chance of mournign Han with him because subversions! Who cares about paying proper tribute to the franchise when you can subvert expectations!
And now we get to the infamous part of the movie where people say Luke was character assasinated. A view I have to agree with.
Now, I'm going to start this off by saying Luke's arc in this movie could have worked. I'm not one of the people that says because Luke was extremely different from the OT and here that this arc was a basterdisation of the character purely because it changed him.
No, it was a basterdisation of Luke because it couldn't be arsed to give us a proper backstory. At the end of TFA we were left with some big questions, such as why he'd vanished from the galactic stage at a time when he was needed most. And this movie doesn't answer them. In fact it makes even more questions with its attempt at an explanation.
Yes, his attempting to kill Child Kylo Ren in his sleep was dreadful writing. Why? Because we are never shown how Luke from RotJ could commit this heinous betrayal. This is the same character who, the last time we saw him, put himself at the mercy of one of the biggest mass murderers in the galaxy because he believed that light would overcome the dark. And you expect me and everyone else to buy that on a dime he would kill his own nephew in his sleep? That character would do that? Yeah, NO.
There are ways this could have worked, which makes how the movie handled it all the more problematic. Anakin when he turned to the Dark Side murdered a bunch of children. Hell the Prequel Trilogy even has the whole "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Dark Side" speech, which as awful as it was could have tied into Luke's arc in this movie. Luke has flirted with the Dark Side in the past (remember tapping into it is how he beat Vader in combat), and Yoda outright warned in that same trilogy that once someone has touched the dark side it will forever haunt them.
They could have spent an extra two or so minutes on Luke's backstory and made it work by incorporating all of this (Luke plagued by nightmares of Kylo for months unknowingly goes to the Dark Side, tries to kill him, then yet again rejects it and removes himself from the galaxy because of it. See how much better this works than the crap bedtime-child-murder scene in the movie?). They tried to take Luke in an unexpected direction for the sake of subverting expectations, and yet they had neither the talent nor the desire to make it work because Rian was so obsessed with shitting on the legacy of the franchise.
People had spent decades wanting to know what Luke did after Return of the Jedi. And now we've got a movie that says he spontaneously decided to murder his nephew in his sleep. Like I've been saying this entire time, this writing was illogical and inconsistent with itself and the franchise. Instead of answering a mystery from TFA this movie opened up another mystery (how did Luke go from reasoning with a mass murderer fuelled by hatred to attempting child murder himself), and this new mystery clashes on every level possible with who and what the character was. It's hardly any surprise so many people despise what this movie did to the character. This sort of twist needed a lot of time and effort to work, and they didn't give it any.
We're getting near the end now. I'm going to take a break before I deal with the rest of this mess of a film.
- Post 5:
And we're back after a several hour intermission to wrap up this overly long write-up that nobody is going to read anyway! Last we left off we dealt with the character assassination of Luke Skywalker, and now we're going to pick up on a surprising note that I doubt anybody reading this expected from me, the character assassination of Rey!
Yep, you read that right, Rey got character assassinated in TLJ, almost as badly as Luke did.
When we left TFA we were given various hints that Rey's affinity with the Force and her unnatural talents might actually have a reason for existing, and we still had some big challenges for her to overcome. She'd bested a wounded Kylo Ren after tapping into the RAGE part of the Force, and she was off to find Luke and bring him into the fray, while perhaps getting some training from a trusted source in the process.
Instead what we get in this movie is her falling for a person she literally wanted to murder not two days ago for killing her daddy replacement, and the revelation that, no, her powers don't come from anywhere in particular. She simply is a super special gifted person.
I wasn't on board the "MaRey Sue" train after the TFA, in fact I even defended her in several discussions on other forums. But after this movie there truly is no defending her. She is never tested as a person, she is always portrayed as right, she never earns her gifts, she just has them. And she never pays for any errors, nor are any of her flaws more than superficial. This was the part of the trilogy where Luke was getting metaphorical and literal stuffing kicked out of him, he was at his lowest as a person physically and mentally after his immense mistakes.
Rey on the other hand is basically ascending to godhood at the end of the movie, and for no discernable reason beyond "the force is strong in her". In other words because she's a Mary Sue. Even freaking Anakin "the chosen one" had to spend the better part of a decade training, and yet Rey literally picks up things and does them better than highly trained people in mere seconds. The fact the movie deliberately went out of its way to say there is no reason for this makes her a Mary Sue.
Rey was very clearly being set up for things at the end of The Force Awakens. And so Rian threw all of that out the window as he did everything else, because "hey having someone have an actual reason for unnatural talents is so cliche, let's subvert the trope! Oh, what's that, those reasons exist so the narrative functions believably? Oh who cares, people will lap it up if we just throw around the term subverting expectations enough!"
And to this day I have no idea what the hell that scene with the mirror was even supposed to be. Honestly it was so ver the top and obtuse I doubt even Rian knows. Given how much of a hack the first part of this movie has been I have no doubt his logic was "eh, who cares, people will read anything into this acid-trip of a scene, let them do the work for me".
I will however give one compliment to this movie, the detail regarding the rain on Kylo's hand after a chat with Rey. This is important for later in the movie, and a lot of people because they missed this crap on Luke's ending. Honestly I'm tempted to say Rian was being too subtle with this foreshadowing, because it's clear nobody picked up on it. But, be that as it may, this is the one time I will agree he was genuinely clever. If only the rest of the movie had been on this quality we might've had a good movie despite his throwing out the blueprint JJ Abrams left for them.
Now back to being not-very-nice! I'll skip ahead to what should have been the climax of the movie, the showdown on Snoke's ship the Supremacy. Rey has pulled a Luke and rushed off to redeem Kylo Ren, and Finn and Rose are arriving at about the same time. Meanwhile Poe is leading a mutiny against the utterly incompetent Admiral Holdo.
A lot is going down at once, and a lot of stupid is about to take place. Lets start with the elephant in the room, Snoke himself. He was killed to "subvert expectations", but this move, while initially seeming clever, actually fucks over the rest of the trilogy. He is the big bad. You cannot kill off the big bad unless you have a suitable replacement for him. This trilogy does not have a replacement for him. And, like everything else, he was set up for a lot and was instead thrown in the can because I can guess Rian simply couldn't figure out what to do with Snoke.
After his appearance in TFA viewers were left with all sorts of questions, where did he come from? What were his motivations? He seems old, where was he during Palpatines reign and did he have any relation to him?
All these questions will now go unanswered. And, see, here's the thing. We needed those answers. Because so far the sequel trilogy has done its damndest to basically make the victory in the OT completely redundant. We needed a good reason for that. But instead Snoke is simply killed off because "SUBVERSION!"
That's not even touching on how he was killed off. I'm sorry, but I do not buy that the guy whose big power is literally reading minds didn't read that Kylo was trying to kill him instead of Rey. He even says Kylo is about to strike down his biggest enemy, which he'd know full well isn't Rey because he'd deliberately mind-linked the two so they'd bond.
Oh, and lets not forget that TFA implied he wanted Rey captured, not killed. And the reason they give in TLJ doesn't work because Rey at the time didn't have the location of Luke Skywalker. So it's pretty clear he wanted Rey to turn her. Another subplot thrown in the bin.
Meanwhile we have Finn and Rose facing off with Phasma. No explanations as to how Phasma survived Starkiller going boom or anything when she was left in a trash compactor. Nope, here she is. And she's back to do just as much as she did in the first movie, oh goodie! And oh look, she's killed off after doing nothing again. Brilliant writting here folks. Like come on, a trooper with another anti-Jedi weapon would've had as much of a fight with Finn as Phasma put up.
Meanwhilemeanwhile Poe's mutiny is put down by Leia regaining concousness and we're told that Holdo was a good person all along and Poe was in the wrong! The fact that Holdo did everything you shouldn't do as a commanding officer the entire movie, and that the entire subplot involving Finn wouldn't have happened if she'd just told Poe the bloody plan, or possibly even at least said there was a plan, such a badly writen character and arc.
So, the plan. Strap yourselves in, because it's time for more never-before-seen tech in Star Wars to appear because the plot wants it to! The plan was to get to a planet with a old Resistance hideout, send everyone out on escape pods while using a scanner cloaker to hide the fact that everyone is evacuating the ships, and then let the First Order think they've won!
Okay, to be fair, that very very last part is actually a clever idea. They've drawn too much heat, it makes sense to play dead. But how they go about it is the stupidest nonesense ever. For starters the entire plan requires nobody to look out the windows of the Star Destroyers to see the escape pods launching, which consdering every Star Destroyer has a giant window at the bridge... Yeah, not buying that happening. Secondly it requires the First Order to not run a decloaking scan (which any competent military would run at set intervals for this exact reason). And third it requires them to actually make it to the planet.
There's another problem here, and it's with the worldbuilding. Why oh why do these escape pods not have some form of lightspeed travel? Seriously think about it for a second. This is space. It's bloody massive. An escape pod without lightspeed travel is basically as useful as just putting on a spacesuit and abadoning ship.
If your ship is being destroyed the odds are extremely high you're on your own. Escape pods without some form of lightspeed travel (even if it's just enough to get to a planet with civilisation) is about as useful at preserving life as a floating piece of wood in the ocean.
Why do I bring this up? Because there is a far smarter plan that doesn't work because these escape pods cannot go lightspeed. Instead of evacuating to Crait they could have simply sent everyone out and scattered across space without the First Order knowing.
So because of this Rian had to create a reason why they couldn't do that. His answer? Escape pods that cannot enter hyperspace.
You might think this is nitpicking, but this is the crux of the movie. Whenever you create a fictional world it needs to be believable within itself. Worldbuilding needs to make sense, to put it very simply. This right here is an example of worldbuilding that doesn't make sense. Instead of the world being a place the story takes place in the world is literally only being created to explain away bad writing. It completely kills suspension of disbelief (ah who am I kidding, mine was dead from the opening scene).
The long and short of this plan is that it can be summed up thus: go near a planet and hope to god the First Order doesn't have someone look out a window while they evacuate their entire forces into unarmed defenceless escape craft. SMART!
Know what would have been smarter? As soon as they realised they were being tracked they should have split their forces into groups. The First Order could not track all of them, as only one of their ships had this technology. At least two thirds of the Resistance would have survived, and the remaining third would have at least had a chance at figuring something else. There's a saying that sums up the point of this strategy. "don't put all your eggs in one basket". And yet that's exactly what they did. AARRGH.
- Post 6:
Back to the confrontation with Snoke. This movies big thing was subverting expectations, right? And yet every time it had the chance to do so in a meaningful way it chickens out. Why do I say that? I refer to my earlier post about how the movie was hinting Rey had an affinity for the Dark Side.
To put it very simply if the movie had truly wanted to subvert expectations they would have had a twist like, oh, I don't know, Rey turning to the Dark Side while Kylo turns back to the Light and the roles gt reversed for the final trilogy leading to an epic cliffhanger! This is another reason Rey is a Mary Sue by the way, she's able to flirt with the Dark Side without any sort of repercussions or personal growth.
And so we're finally at the end of this trainwreck of a film. The final battle begins, and to be honest everything goes fine until the Finn sacrifice scene, where Rose yet again shows why she is the most pointless, stupidest, unwanted character in the franchise. Yes, even worse than Jar-Jar. It's bad enough that she rams Finn in such a way that in any other work of fiction would have killed the pair of them. But the fact she turns around to Finn, and actually unironically says "that's how we'll win. Not by fighting what we hate, but with love". All this is said while the gate stopping the resistance being slaughtered is literally blown apart in the background. The same resistance Rose's sister DIED FOR IN THE OPENING OF THE MOVIE.
Now, lets take a look at what she actually said. Does love stop bullets? No. Does love stop a lightsaber? No. Does love stop an army genociding multiple planets at once? No.
Know what does stop those things though? Taking up arms and fighting back.
This is probably the single worst sentence uttered by anyone in a war film ever. A ten year old wouldn't write this sort of tripe. It's an attempt to sound profound without even a fraction of wisdom behind it. It's pseudo-philosophy at best, flat out insulting to everyone who died in a war in real life at worst. I hate to break it to these bleeding heart pacifists that grew up well past the times of war, but this sentimental crap is complete nonsense. If people actually lived by this ideal we'd be ruled by the fucking Nazi's right now.
Phew, need to take a deep breath. And to be clear this theme can work, and it has worked. Harry Potter made this work. But it cannot just be thrown in as a piece of sanctimonious dialogue and work. It needs to actually have the story structured around it. It worked in Harry Potter because love had actual power. In Star Wars love is just an emotion, and emotions on their own will do absolutely nothing.
So, Rey turns up in the Falcon to save the day by drawing Tie Fighters away from them because... Kylo Ren has a mental breakdown and tells the entire fleet to chase the Falcon rather than have a small squadron harry it while the rest wipe out the pitiful dwindling ground forces. Yay, more of the heroes surviving because the villains are too stupid to do anything.
So then Luke walks out, and we all know how the scene goes. Now, this is where I, instead of attacking the movie, actually compliment it again! A lot of people seem to think Luke died because of the projection, forgetting the small detail from Rey and Ren's projections earlier that there is in fact some feedback to both ends. m So, Luke didn't die because he overloaded himself. He likely died because of the barrage of AT-AT fire followed by Kylo Ren sticking his sabre where Luke's heart would have been. This is where Rian was actually too subtle, too many people missed the very small details that explain this. And so while for many Luke's death was a spit in the face I actually feel it is one of the only good parts of this movie. It's clever, it's sad, and it's touching. It would have been even better if the movie hadn't spent its entire runtme assassinating Luke beforehand though.
So, I'm done with the individual parts of the movie. All except for one, and I deliberately left this for last because this is honest to god the worst thing in this movie. The biggest inconsistency in both it and the entire franchise. I, of course, refer to the "Holdo manoeuvre". Where she rams a ship into the Supremacy at lightspeed, shattering not just it but the entire fleet behind it.
The problems with this should be extremely obvious, and yet this one scene destroys everything in Star Wars, from its combat scenes to its very worldbuilding.
What this scene establishes is that you can ram a far smaller thing into a bigger thing at lightspeed to create massive damage. Why wasn't this used against either Death Star, why wasn't it used in any previous battle, why were blockades and planetary sieges ever a thing? And, most of all, if they could do this why was the Resistance for most of the movie letting their ships run out of fuel to be harmlessly blown up by the First Order instead of having each of them rammed into them?
Oh, but the problems go far deeper. Why, in a universe where you can take a small thing and easily destroy a big thing with it, are things like Star Destroyers around? The entire way weapons have developed in Star Wars is now completely contrary to what can be done. If this was a move that could be done weapons would get ever-smaller, not bigger! Why do they even use fighters, why haven't they moved past them into drone rams?
There's one other part of the movie I forgot to mention earlier (because there is so much I could criticise that these posts could easily be double the length they are right now). Why did the First Order simply sit back and let the fuel of the Resistance run out? Why did they not try other tactics such as, I don't know, sending a Star Destroyer ahead of them at Lightspeed and catching them in a pincer attack, a very basic strategy that would have ended the movie?
Of course that's the reason right there. Because it would have ended the movie.
So, one final post going over some general things, and then I can close this book of a critique of the farce that is The Last Jedi.
- Post 7:
I know a lot of the typical retorts to all of the above. "It's just a kids movie, you're overthinking it!" "But the themes are really truly great and excuse the inconsistencies!" And a few more that aren't even worth addressing because they diverge from arguments into strawman territory.
-It's just a kids movie
That doesn't stop it being a convoluted mess that had many a child actively asking their parents what was happening because of how disjointed it was. What a great kids movie! Besides all of that I would also ask something. Why are we excusing mediocrity just because it is designed for children? Do children not deserve good well-made entertainment?
In fact I would argue the quality of what we show our children is incredibly important. Taste is formed at youth, and the more a child is challenged as a youth the more likely they are to grow up with a greater capacity for thought and talent. We also need to be careful with what role models we expose our children to. Rey is a horrible role model. She gets everything handed to her, never has to earn anything, and never faces any true hardships. She isn't inspiring as a person, and she doesn't teach a child strong values such as perseverance.
Point is Star Wars being a franchise with a big childrens market doesn't excuse TLJ of its issues, in fact it makes them more problematic.
-But the themes!
Okay, let's get something straight. You can have a good story without any strong themes. You cannot have a good story when it's nothing but themes. This movie is the latter. It is so absolutely obsessed with the two themes of subverting expectations and "killing the past" that it forgets that it has to work as a story as well. It is riddled with inconsistencies, characters making illogical choices because the plot needs them to, and subpar storytelling.
Oh, and speaking of "killing the past", I'd like to say something about that. It can amount to "fepk you movie", but I'll elaborate why it inspires that reaction from me.
Killing the past. Forgetting the past. That is one of the worst things we as a species can do. "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." Now, I probably don't need to explain why that would be an issue for us in real life. You know, world wars born from isolationism and nationalism, ect ect ect. And yet here we have a movie practically preaching to ignore the past, when anybody and everybody knows that the past is best remembered, mistakes especially so you can learn from them and avoid repeating them.
It's also the biggest middle-finger the movie could give to the entire old franchise. Say what you will about the prequels (and I could say many many rude things about them), but they never once crapped on the thing that allowed them to come into existence. And yet this movie all but tells the viewer "old Star Wars sucked, old things suck".
That's really the problem here. Rian had no respect for the franchise that came before (nor did Kennedy or she'd have reigned him in a little), and openly mocked it in the movie. That moment Kylo tells Rey to kill the past was basically as on-the-nose as Rian could get about giving the franchise the middle-finger. The fact it was insulting both to Star Wars and basically every big war we've had in our past is almost an achievement.
one final point. This movie has all but killed any chance for episode 9 to be remotely good. Snoke's demise means there is no credible villain, Rey hasn't evolved as a person and so we know there is nothing that can test her at this point, and the First Order is run by actual incompetents. Hux is a military idiot and Kylo is mentally unstable. The pair of them make awful big bads, and yet that is the role they must now play because SUBVERSION'S.
Or worse, they might backtrack on Snoke's death and come up with some excuse that it wasn't really him that Kylo killed. At this point it feels like the only route they can go and have an even half-passable climax (especially since Snoke is the only thing in the trilogy to be shown as stronger than and a danger to Rey), but it's really amateurish writing. Either way the climax is bound to be a very limp one now. Rian has saddled Abrams with a mess I doubt anybody envies. As for me, I'll possibly rent it on home release, but Disney certainly aren't getting another dime from me after the insult that was TLJ.
Far as I'm concerned the only canon sequel to the original trilogy is the Thrawn trilogy, and Star Wars ended with the Hand of Thrawn duoligy with Mara and Luke's vision of the future.
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| | | Crumpy Andy Zeta Metroid
Posts : 4921 Points : 4933 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 32 Location : The South
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Fri 11 Jan 2019 - 18:35 | |
| |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Fri 11 Jan 2019 - 19:57 | |
| I think my PM just missed you before you went to bed, Athers. Anyway, I've put all of your posts into one, and spoilered them to stop them from taking up most of this page. As I said in the message, I know we all double-post from time to time, but seven consecutive posts in less than a day (seven massive posts!) is a bit much.
I'd also appreciate it if you could give a one-paragraph TL;DR summary of the main points, or a contents. I am interested in what you have to say, but I'm simply not poring through a seven-post rant for that. Not from anyone, mark you, this isn't your style at fault. Jimbob could write a seven-monsterpost rant, filled with his award-winning jokes, and I'd say the same. I daresay most of us will be similar. Then, if we find something where we want to look into your detailed thoughts, we can dig into the body of your post(s).
As for my stance on TLJ, if it falls apart upon re-analysis then I'd rather not re-analyse it. I really enjoyed watching it in the cinema, much more so than either 7, or 2 and 3 (slash 5 and 6 slash Empire and Return) when I watched them on the telly. It was good fun. |
| | | Jimbob Bargain Hunter
Posts : 4637 Points : 4663 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 42 Location : Milton Keynes
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Sat 12 Jan 2019 - 11:47 | |
| - Balladeer wrote:
- Jimbob could write a seven-monsterpost rant, filled with his award-winning jokes, and I'd say the same. I daresay most of us will be similar.
Oh shit, do I do that? Sorry if I do that. Feel free to banish me, I'm pretty self-important sometimes. EDIT:1) Self-important, not Elf-Important FFS 2) Having re-read this: to clarify, I am having a go at myself here, no-one else
Last edited by Jimbob on Sat 12 Jan 2019 - 12:01; edited 1 time in total |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Sat 12 Jan 2019 - 11:53 | |
| Purely hypothetical example, using you as one of the funnier people around here. |
| | | Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Sat 12 Jan 2019 - 13:14 | |
| I wouldn't really call it a rant, there are definitely parts where I do rant when the movie gets especially awful and insulting, but overall I'd like to think the passion that drives me to rant has flickered out a while ago, the fire dying down to embers of cold disdain. The problem is that you really do have to go deep on a lot of these flaws to really explain why they're problems. But I'll make a briefer TLDR version of some of the big ones. Still longish by forum post standards.
Basically the entire film, and I do mean the entire film, is an inconsistent mess that tries far too hard to "subvert expectations" to the point it has undermined both itself, the franchise, and the next episode. Why?
-The world-building is in complete tatters after things like the lightspeed suicide attack, a move that due to its effectiveness and apparent-ease calls into question every space fight in every previous movie that involved a giant unstoppable ship and even the tactics employed in TLJ itself.
-The stakes for the climax are in tatters because this movie went out of its way to portray the two villains that now succeed Snoke as "big bads" as incompetents. Neither Hux nor Kylo Ren are remotely intimidating (in fact the climax made them both into comedic relief. Don't tell me you didn't laugh at Kylo's "MORE!" command during the attack of Luke), nor are they credible as rulers of a vast faction. Couple that with how neither poses a threat to Rey and you've got a fizzler of a climax to a trilogy next time.
-Everyone was portrayed as idiots in the movie and it was a race to the bottom. One can point out loads of tactical issues in any of the space fights in the movie, from the very opening right through to the previously-mentioned lightspeed suicide attack.
-It provides some absolutely horrifying messages to young people. Rey, who is supposed to be Luke Skywalker for girls, is portrayed as basically perfect. Many like to say Luke was unnaturally talented in the first trilogy, but what they do not realise is that Luke made many mistakes because of his very personality, and that the trilogy was about him paying for and learning from those mistakes (at the same point in Empire that Luke was having his hand chopped off Rey was shooting down three ties in a single blast). And so what we have is a character designed to be a role-model that is more likely to make many a girl develop self-esteem issues regarding her own personality, just like how many already develop body-image esteem issues.
-Then there's Killing the past is not only an awful thing to say about a franchise like Star Wars, but it's also an insult to every person that gave their lives for, you know, freedom of the world. Which is ironic considering Rian outright references world war combat in several sequences in the movie, most notably the awful bombing sequence at the opener (I again have to ask: where are the Y-Wings, those ships designed to both bomb things and engage in dogfights so they aren't just fodder for hoards of Tie-Fighters?).
A lot of what I went into detail about in my posts before, on their own, in a vacuum, would be forgivable and ignorable. But there are just so many issues in the movie that it's impossible. Even my attempt at a TLDR-post is still long by forum standards. |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Sat 12 Jan 2019 - 17:07 | |
| That's much better!
I will pick up on point 2, because... I find it funny. Kylo Ren was never going to live up to Darth Vader, so I'm glad they took him in his own direction. That direction is... amusing and whiny to be honest. Then again, I preferred Thor 2 to Thor because I found it funnier, which I believe is not the established opinion.
Rey being Mary Sue-ish is, I think, an issue with men writing female characters in general. Male writers know they have to make 'strong female characters' and aren't quite sure how to do it, for some reason. Instead, she's a plot device for the Luke-on-the-island scene, but Luke is pretty strong in that so that's fine. I think that's the (male-dominated) film industry as a whole taking baby steps, and it will improve, and for now I'm just glad we have the star being female (and pissing off a lot of people who deserve to be pissed off). Fortunately there's also Carrie Fisher playing a much more interesting Leia than what I've seen in the original films.
The other points may well be valid, but my final paragraph from my previous post applies there. |
| | | JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15896 Points : 15061 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Sat 12 Jan 2019 - 23:09 | |
| I'm surprised you've turned on TLJ this much Athrun - you gave it a pretty glowing write-up after release from looking back in the thread! I'm not the film's biggest fan by any stretch as evidenced by my post about it back after release, but I did want to counter a couple of your points: - Athrun888 wrote:
-The world-building is in complete tatters after things like the lightspeed suicide attack, a move that due to its effectiveness and apparent-ease calls into question every space fight in every previous movie that involved a giant unstoppable ship and even the tactics employed in TLJ itself. Yo. And that's canon too. - Athrun888 wrote:
- -The stakes for the climax are in tatters because this movie went out of its way to portray the two villains that now succeed Snoke as "big bads" as incompetents. Neither Hux nor Kylo Ren are remotely intimidating (in fact the climax made them both into comedic relief. Don't tell me you didn't laugh at Kylo's "MORE!" command during the attack of Luke), nor are they credible as rulers of a vast faction. Couple that with how neither poses a threat to Rey and you've got a fizzler of a climax to a trilogy next time.
I'm fully expecting a time-skip for Episode IX to raise the stakes as I do think that a direct follow-up to where TLJ left things wouldn't be a fitting finale, but I think your point about Kylo Ren not being intimidating is kinda meant to be the point. He's still a lost, frustrated angsty boy who's trying desperately to be something he's not - Vader - and failing at it miserably. I'm really interested to see what they do with his arc in IX. |
| | | Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 15 Jan 2019 - 11:40 | |
| I probably should clarify that I actually very much like Kylo Ren and what they've been doing with him. He's been a temperamental insecure wannabe since the first movie, and it's a refreshing take that can still yield a good attack dog for the villains, with his breakdowns posing both opportunities for comedy and intimidation. My problem is that Snoke's removal means there is nobody who can carry on as a genuine mastermind type villain. Hux was strategically incompetent from start to finish in the film, and Kylo Ren is far too unstable for the viewer to buy that he's the leader of the First Order. Yet those are the two people who will be leading the First Order from here on out. Not only is this something that doesn't sell, it also makes the next movie incredibly predictable, because it's fairly obvious that the two of them are going to butt heads and destablise the First Order in ways that will allow the resistance to secure victory. Yes, Snoke is a cliche villain. However cliches are not things to be shunned just because they are cliches. Cliches often develop because they make sense. They are then popularised because of their effectiveness. Snoke's removal has done far more harm to the ongoing story than subverting our expectations of his role has done. Neither Kylo Ren nor Hux are villains that work as main villains, Snoke was. As for men being unable to write good female characters, I've seen them do it loads of times. In books. Tiffany Aching from Discworld for example. Brandon Sanderson has had some pretty good female protagonists as well. Cithrin in the Dagger and the Coin series was nothing short of genius. Then there's at least four in Game of Thrones. To be clear I can name at least a dozen from female authors as well, in case anyone thinks I have some sort of prejudice going on here. But you are right, plenty of men also cannot write good female characters either. However I actually have my suspicions that the poor quality in characterisation of women in Hollywood movies right now actually stems from leaning too far to the other side. The social movements have retaliated to toxic cliches of old by swinging things too far the other way. I don't buy the poor characterisation of characters like Rey in TLJ as a male writer problem, the head of Lucasfilms right now is a woman who, as far as I can tell, is pretty big on these social trends ( specifically the female power movement, to use the most polite term. With statements like "The Force is female" I'd use far ruder ones in different company). she is basically the Kevin Fiege of Star Wars right now. And yet everything in TLJ was fine with her, got greenlit, and released. No, I think characters like Rey are a problem because people have become too spineless to give female characters realistic personalities and flaws, lest they be seen as sexist by the outrage culture on social media. Can't have a female get into some trouble otherwise it's victimising women. Can't have a female character have personality flaws and make mistakes that hurt others, that demonizes women. We cannot even have characters in fictional works just being characters any more because of how hellbent society is on politicising every thing under the sun. It's all very ironic, because this culture is having the opposite effect they want. They want equality and claim they want an end to shallow female characters in mainstream media, and yet their pushing that media into creating characters that are becoming even more shallow than when women were basically just there as romantic interests. And to be clear I speak as someone who actively enjoys and seeks out stories with strong female characters. However it seems Hollywood seems to mistake Mary Sues for strong characters, when what people really want are female characters that are strongly written. - JayMoyles wrote:
- Athrun888 wrote:
-The world-building is in complete tatters after things like the lightspeed suicide attack, a move that due to its effectiveness and apparent-ease calls into question every space fight in every previous movie that involved a giant unstoppable ship and even the tactics employed in TLJ itself. Yo. And that's canon too.
- Athrun888 wrote:
- -The stakes for the climax are in tatters because this movie went out of its way to portray the two villains that now succeed Snoke as "big bads" as incompetents. Neither Hux nor Kylo Ren are remotely intimidating (in fact the climax made them both into comedic relief. Don't tell me you didn't laugh at Kylo's "MORE!" command during the attack of Luke), nor are they credible as rulers of a vast faction. Couple that with how neither poses a threat to Rey and you've got a fizzler of a climax to a trilogy next time.
I'm fully expecting a time-skip for Episode IX to raise the stakes as I do think that a direct follow-up to where TLJ left things wouldn't be a fitting finale, but I think your point about Kylo Ren not being intimidating is kinda meant to be the point. He's still a lost, frustrated angsty boy who's trying desperately to be something he's not - Vader - and failing at it miserably. I'm really interested to see what they do with his arc in IX. Oh I'm very aware of Interdictor Star Destroyers, they were one of Grand Admiral Thrawn's favourite toys in the now non-canon novel sequel trilogy and the linchpin of many an exciting chapter ( one of my favourite ones is Luke getting yanked out of Lightspeed in a trap, having to strategise his way out of Thrawn's trap, and then escaping in a X-Wing whose hyperdrive is completely shot in the escape and praying he can get picked up by an ally before he loses oxygen or gets picked up by the Empire. Nothing in the sequel trilogy has been even close to as inventive as that one chapter and its cat-and-mouse lone-hero vs oppressive power igneuity). The problem is they aren't used or even referenced in the movies themselves. Hell the whole slow chase sequence would have actually made sense if they had even mentioned Interdictors as preventing them (and by extension the First Order) from using Lightspeed as a means to change the dynamic of the situation. In fact their existence in the Star Wars canon and complete absence from TLJ is another flaw with the movie, right up there with the absence of Y-Wing bombers being replaced by cumbersome bombers that got decimated and only did their job by pure luck. A lot of this movie felt like a rough first draft that hadn't been properly gone through by several editors and continuity consultants. This is actually one of the movies biggest flaws. So many of the inconsistencies are filled in exclusively in the extra material and then ignored in the movies anyway. I've heard that the First Order invaded all over the place and were in fact far stronger than the movies implied. This isn't good storytelling, if you're propping up your movies after the fact then they're crap movies. The "EU" should not exist solely to fix the movies, it is supposed to exist as an extra on the side for people that want more. Not for the screenwriters to excuse a complete lack of any detail in the world. |
| | | Buskalilly Galactic Nova
Posts : 15082 Points : 15260 Join date : 2013-02-25 Age : 34 Location : Nagano
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 15 Jan 2019 - 13:00 | |
| Ah yes. I see you have learned well from your previous posts' reception. |
| | | OrangeRakoon Disciple of Greener
Posts : 1556 Points : 1560 Join date : 2015-05-06 Age : 32 Location : Reading, UK
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 15 Jan 2019 - 13:10 | |
| I don't particularly like TLJ, I think it has a ton of inconsistencies and unforgivable plot holes, but I also appreciate a lot of the visuals (the salt flats are a beautiful setting for a battle) and I also appreciate its attempts at subversion and setting itself apart. The snoke fight halfway through was an excellent scene made better through its parallels to the original trilogy.
Both FA and TLJ have nothing on the original trilogy, bar their very impressive recreation of the look and sound of classic Star Wars, so they are disappointing, but I'm not gonna get hung up about it because at the end of the day its a bug dumb franchise about space wizards. |
| | | Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 15 Jan 2019 - 16:15 | |
| - Drunkalilly wrote:
- Ah yes. I see you have learned well from your previous posts' reception.
All of that was me taking on board the desire for shorter posts. It was two replies that didn't even reach the length of one of the previous essays masquerading as forum posts! But hey, I'll take a leaf from your book. The Last Jedi was a factually highly flawed visually impressive two-and-a-half hour defecation on a once-beloved franchise that went out of its way to deliberately throw out every single plot-thread left to it by its predecessor in a movie that basically hated the fact it was a Star Wars movie while doing nothing but repeating past story beats of the franchise far worse than previous movies did them. I can, of course, go into extreme detail about every one of those remarks, if you so desire. - OrangeRakoon wrote:
- I don't particularly like TLJ, I think it has a ton of inconsistencies and unforgivable plot holes, but I also appreciate a lot of the visuals (the salt flats are a beautiful setting for a battle) and I also appreciate its attempts at subversion and setting itself apart. The snoke fight halfway through was an excellent scene made better through its parallels to the original trilogy.
Both FA and TLJ have nothing on the original trilogy, bar their very impressive recreation of the look and sound of classic Star Wars, so they are disappointing, but I'm not gonna get hung up about it because at the end of the day its a bug dumb franchise about space wizards. A lot of the bizarre inconsistencies between the two movies become clear when you learn that Rian allegedly started writing TLJ before they'd even finished filming TFA. If various people are to be believed Abrams actually had a very rough draft of a script for TLJ, and allegedly literally nothing in it made it into the movie we saw. There are plenty of things one could read into all of the behind-the-scenes stuff regarding TLJ, but one thing becomes very clear. There is no overarcing outline for the trilogy, it was handed from one person to another and both authors had complete control and very very different stories they wanted to tell. This is a very basic problem that shouldn't be occurring in such a major franchise. Honestly it's a surprise TLJ isn't even more of a inconsistent mess As for subversion's, I do actually like some of the concepts we saw in tlj, however like the rest of the movie they were completely botched. Luke becoming a jaded cynical hermit who'd basically gone " flep it I'm done!" after having his life's work blow up in his face was honestly a creative take on the character, and it genuinely could have worked if his backstory had been properly fleshed out and the movie had focused more on him and less on vapid sideplots that go literally nowhere like Finn and Rose's Casino Adventures. The franchises simplicity is exactly why the convoluted mess that is TLJ is so frustrating. Ah well, at least the Thrawn trilogy still exists. |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Tue 15 Jan 2019 - 19:45 | |
| - Athrun888 wrote:
- Yet those are the two people who will be leading the First Order from here on out. Not only is this something that doesn't sell, it also makes the next movie incredibly predictable, because it's fairly obvious that the two of them are going to butt heads and destablise the First Order in ways that will allow the resistance to secure victory.
...that's not a criticism of TLJ though surely, that's a criticism of the a prospective film. If they're disappointing in Episode IX I'll slag it off then. - Athrun888 wrote:
- I don't buy the poor characterisation of characters like Rey in TLJ as a male writer problem, the head of Lucasfilms right now is a woman who, as far as I can tell, is pretty big on these social trends (specifically the female power movement, to use the most polite term. With statements like "The Force is female" I'd use far ruder ones in different company). she is basically the Kevin Fiege of Star Wars right now. And yet everything in TLJ was fine with her, got greenlit, and released.
No, I think characters like Rey are a problem because people have become too spineless to give female characters realistic personalities and flaws, lest they be seen as sexist by the outrage culture on social media. Can't have a female get into some trouble otherwise it's victimising women. Can't have a female character have personality flaws and make mistakes that hurt others, that demonizes women. We cannot even have characters in fictional works just being characters any more because of how hellbent society is on politicising every thing under the sun. I did not know that about the head of Lucasfilms. I do wonder how much power someone like that has over script, but you're right, it obviously can't all be placed at the feet of men (just most of it). However, I think what you describe is another side of the same coin: people (and I do mostly mean the male writers here) don't know how to write good flawed female characters, so if they need to try and write a decent female, they end up Mary Suing her. They swing from one extreme to the other, from Princess Peach to Samus Aran (only with dialogue, which history has shown with Samus to be a mistake). As for being afraid of backlash, good. They'll get backlash whichever option they go for, as has been evident from TLJ: you've presumably seen that the Asian fighter pilot whose name I can't remember has been hounded off Twitter. If they're trying to fall on the right side, so they get the backlash they feel is defensible, and they tilt towards making female characters OP... It's not ideal, and they have a lot to learn still, and I do agree that there's work to be done on flawed female characters who aren't flawed in a sexist way, but at least it's not Original Trilogy Leia being paraded around in a gold bra. Basically, they're starting to get the right idea. The execution has been lacking thus far. |
| | | Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Thu 17 Jan 2019 - 17:04 | |
| Yay, my browser crashed! I had written out a reply, realised I wanted to revise about half of it, so left it for the next day. Then the browser crashed taking the entire thing with it. So if this post seems kind of half-assed it's because I'm trying to repeat what I'd written already from a bare memory. - Quote :
- ...that's not a criticism of TLJ though surely, that's a criticism of the a prospective film. If they're disappointing in Episode IX I'll slag it off then.
Oh it very much is. TLJ is the movie that killed off the big bad in one of the biggest wastes of a character the franchise has ever seen. So when Hux and Kylo Ren, two characters that absolutely cannot sell that they are strong enough to hold together and run a warmachine state bent on galactic conquest, are replacing the only villain in the trilogy with the screen-presence to sell his status as a galactic threat because eisode 8 chose to kill off its main villain because subversions then any issues episode 9 runs in to in that regard are episode 8's fault. Remember that episode 8 is the movie that spent its entire duration making Hux, who in the force awakens was portrayed as a young Tarkin-esque figure with the presumed military mind and ruthless psychopathy to match, out to be a complete military moron. I'm not going to detail why, my original posts went into it in extreme detail, but he as of this movie is nothing more than a joke of a character. As for Kylo Ren, he cannot carry the torch of main villain. His role is best as a lackey for the big bad. In that role he is an excellent character. Outside that role? Unless episode 9 skips a ton of character development ( which would be a flaw in its own right) he will falter as a main villain. Kylo Ren was never supposed to be the big bad. He finds himself in that position because Rian decided to throw literally every dangling plot thread from the first movie in the bin. -Who are Rey's parents? Nobodies apparently. -Why is Rey better at using the Force after being aware of it for a day than people who dedicated decades to practicing it? She just is. -Who is Snoke? What are his motivations? How did this clearly very powerful and old Dark Side user not turn up during the reign of the Sith that ended only 30 years ago? Is he related to Palpatine? Who cares, he's dead! -How did the remnants of the Empire get to the point where the entire first trilogy was basically invalidated? TFA didn't answer this so Rian doesn't feel the need to either! -How did the character who believed he could turn the most evil mass murderer in the galaxy good again become so disillusioned that he'd try to murder an as-yet innocent child in his sleep? And why was his response to not decide to clean up his mess as the only person powerful enough to do so, but instead rot away in the middle of nowhere but leave a special map to his location when he apparently just wants to die on his own? Rian doesn't know, that's for sure. Snoke, along with several other elements, was being set up. He was thrown in the bin. Now we have two characters that were never designed to play the role of main villains. This is not how you tell a story. - Quote :
- I did not know that about the head of Lucasfilms. I do wonder how much power someone like that has over script, but you're right, it obviously can't all be placed at the feet of men (just most of it).
However, I think what you describe is another side of the same coin: people (and I do mostly mean the male writers here) don't know how to write good flawed female characters, so if they need to try and write a decent female, they end up Mary Suing her. They swing from one extreme to the other, from Princess Peach to Samus Aran (only with dialogue, which history has shown with Samus to be a mistake).
As for being afraid of backlash, good. They'll get backlash whichever option they go for, as has been evident from TLJ: you've presumably seen that the Asian fighter pilot whose name I can't remember has been hounded off Twitter. If they're trying to fall on the right side, so they get the backlash they feel is defensible, and they tilt towards making female characters OP... It's not ideal, and they have a lot to learn still, and I do agree that there's work to be done on flawed female characters who aren't flawed in a sexist way, but at least it's not Original Trilogy Leia being paraded around in a gold bra.
Basically, they're starting to get the right idea. The execution has been lacking thus far. I couldn't disagree more about them getting the right idea. The modern trends are nothing more than pandering to social media outrage culture, and the results are characters even more vapid than the archetypes they want to kill. The 80's and 90's was far more progressive in terms of characterising leading ladies than the movies of today, especially in sci-fi. In the last three to four years we have actually seen the quality of female characters regress in pop culture. I also feel the concept that men cannot write good female characters is a myth from a long-past era. There are loads of examples of well-written females, including some in mainstream entertainment. The pieces of media that are failing are the very ones trying to "fix" a problem that simply does not exist. Male authors capable of writing believable strong female characters exist aplenty, they just aren't being hired for Star Wars ( or any of the other big pop culture movies). Probably because they'd actually give Rey some flaws as a person for her to grow and overcome. You bring up Leia, yet you do her a disservice. One or two scenes that were capped off with her strangling her captor to death in a situation the story itself condemned vs an entire trilogy that showed Leia was just as important as any of the other side-characters. The average female character we get now can only look at OT Leia and weep at what they can never be no matter how hard they try. As for Rose Tiko, I having nothing but condemnation for harassment and bullying. With that said it is the regrettable outcome when one is the actor for what is the most loathed character in Star Wars. Make no mistake Rose Tiko being an outright insultingly bad character in what was already a controversial movie is the main reason for those events transpiring. That and twitter being a cesspit that rivals the youtube comment section in cancerous substance. Kathleen Kennedy had complete control in overseeing and directing the Star Wars franchise, like how Kevin Feige has control over the MCU. She was the head of Lucasfilms, and we all know how Disney works. It lets its subsidiaries do what they please so long as they bring in the big bucks. She is rumoured to have recently lost most of her power though ( indeed she hasn't been seen in a public capacity since just after Solo flopped), Disney is fed up with the Star Wars franchise going down the toilet in sales. As for backlashes, well. I'll just point out that the backlash to social ideologies taking over the democrats played a not-insignificant role in seeing Trump elected. Letting the pendulum swing to extremes results in very dangerous outcomes as more and more radical ideologies start to take prominence and power on both sides. But more relevant to Star Wars is the fact that right now they're killing the franchise. And that's not just hyperbole, financial reports out just in the last few days shows that Star Wars is losing ground in merch sales, which is at a all-time low. Which means kids aren't interested in Marey Sue and co. One backlash would have been relatively impotent anger on twitter. The other, the backlash that is happening over The Last Jedi, is killing Star Wars financially. And speaking as someone who likes Star Wars I'd rather it didn't die, not because of this at any rate. |
| | | masofdas The Next Miyamoto
Posts : 24018 Points : 24418 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Thu 17 Jan 2019 - 17:16 | |
| I watched Pokémon the Movie: I Choose You! on Netflix which for a long time pokemon fan has a lot of nostalgia, also I'm not crying your crying over butterfree. |
| | | Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26468 Points : 25302 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Thu 17 Jan 2019 - 18:51 | |
| Athrun... you've defeated me. I give. It's a definite improvement from the Seven Deadly Posts, but you still need to work on your summarising. Maybe the original lost version was more concise? Either way, I feel bad about it, but I can't keep responding. Sorry pal. Mas: that chuffing song. I'm not sure if it's genuinely still sad or nostalgia any more, but every time. |
| | | Buskalilly Galactic Nova
Posts : 15082 Points : 15260 Join date : 2013-02-25 Age : 34 Location : Nagano
| Subject: Re: Movies 2: Electric Boogaloo Thu 11 Apr 2019 - 16:41 | |
| I finally saw Bumblebee! It was dope.
That was basically the transformers film I've been saying they should make since DotM in 2011 - dial it back, concentrate on having a small cast and some actual emotion and character. I also loved the designs which were closer to the classic comicbooks.
That all being said . . . I kinda miss the Bayhem. |
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