News thread

Turns out the country *isn't* full of wankers...

A question to any forumites who caught the Scottish independence debate between Salmond and Darling tonight, in particular the Scottish contingency here - what do you think of it?

Personally, I found myself thoroughly underwhelmed by the whole affair. I'm undecided as to how I'm going to vote, and both sides disappointed me. However, it was Salmond in particular who really disappointed me - irrelevant jabs about driving on the other side of the road and totally dodging the question about a currency union.

I really do like the rhetoric of the Yes campaign as I do reckon Scotland could be a successful independent country with the resources we have - it's the lack of organisation in our leadership that gives me a reason to be concerned. I'm growing more and more concerned that this will be a last minute decision for me because there's a lot of soundbites and claims being thrown about by both sides and not enough facts.

I'm asking you lot because I think you're all level headed individuals and I'd really value your opinions.

All the Scottish people I know down south are pro-union, but I guess that's not terribly surprising. I do get the feeling that a lot of the "Yes" campaign is jingoistic bluster as opposed to thinking through the issues, but I wouldn't be surprised if the side of the argument I see as a Londoner is skewed.

I think a lot of it is short-termist politicking: it's Scotland which has had the biggest 'official' rejection of a lot of the more Toryish of the Coalition's policies (notably the bedroom tax) caused by an almost complete lack of blue voters north of the border- at one point there was a running joke made of the fact the nation had more pandas than it did Conservative MPs- so it's hard not think of it as the opposite version of the Tea Party lot who want to secede from the US. If there was no referendum planned, it would have been interesting to see how much noise on the matter would continue to be made after the next general election.

I can't say I hold a strong opinion either way beyond similar level of politicking, myself- but then, like Balla, I don't really have the experience to form one.

JayMoyles wrote:

A question to any forumites who caught the Scottish independence debate between Salmond and Darling tonight, in particular the Scottish contingency here - what do you think of it?

Personally, I found myself thoroughly underwhelmed by the whole affair. I'm undecided as to how I'm going to vote, and both sides disappointed me. However, it was Salmond in particular who really disappointed me - irrelevant jabs about driving on the other side of the road and totally dodging the question about a currency union.

I really do like the rhetoric of the Yes campaign as I do reckon Scotland could be a successful independent country with the resources we have - it's the lack of organisation in our leadership that gives me a reason to be concerned. I'm growing more and more concerned that this will be a last minute decision for me because there's a lot of soundbites and claims being thrown about by both sides and not enough facts.

I'm asking you lot because I think you're all level headed individuals and I'd really value your opinions.

I didn't watch it but heard the run down from yourself and many other places/people & I'd have to agree with you about there not being enough facts making our choice of vote a lot tougher, however I'd rather take the new bumpy road & the risks it has than stay on the one we are currently on.

Balla - Calling it bluster isn't unfair. I'm of the same opinion really. How's the media down south been handling the independence debate?

Beemoh - I've seen the fact that Scotland doesn't vote Tory bandied about, but then doesn't the North of England avoid voting Tory too? I can't give any weight to that part of the argument really.

Jas - I feel there's just a sandstorm of political bluffing right now, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to pick out the facts from the boasts.

What frustrates me about the Better Together campaign is that there is absolutely nothing convincing about their arguments. "We'll miss you!" and "but the union works!" means absolutely nothing when the whole point of the referendum is that it's an attempt for Scotland to be governed differently - in my opinion, Westminster's interests are so far removed from those of Scotland, and have been for so long, that it's about time something was done about it. Even if it's a no vote, we absolutely must get devo max.

Additionally: the idea that it's a hatred of England is infuriatingly blinkered. For one, the SNP do not hate England. Alex Salmond does not hate England. Alex Salmond would not be in charge of Scotland. We would still have a democracy and would still vote for different political parties and as beemoh touched on before, Scotland's voting patterns are nothing like those of the rest of the UK. But even if we voted in a Tory government in Scotland, the Scottish Conservatives talk so much more sense than a lot of those down south (I am a lot more inclined to listen to Ruth Davidson over David Cameron).

While the Yes campaign is full of poorly-articulated bluster, I feel like they actually have some decent arguments, whereas No tends to default to "but union we love you Let's Stay Together!", and I can't shake the feeling that there is also the tendency to try and intimidate Yes voters with arguments such as "but we wouldn't support a currency union, therefore you can't vote Yes because you'd be fucked".

I didn't watch the debate but to be honest my opinion can probably be summed up by saying that Thatcher, Major, Blair and Cameron was a shocking run of prime ministers and if we have the opportunity to try and take a different political path then we should go for it.

JayMoyles wrote:

Balla - Calling it bluster isn't unfair. I'm of the same opinion really. How's the media down south been handling the independence debate?

Not great. Most of the articles on the BBC have headlines like "Salmond: Proud Scotland Stands Alone" compared with "Non-SNP Member: Here's a Sensible Financial Reason Not to Do This". Or maybe that's just how it seems through my biased eyes. I haven't been paying all that much attention, to be honest!

I really hope that people don't vote for stupid patriotic reasons. That said, Rum's argument about getting away from the Tories is a very persuasive one. Although it's not very nice of you to leave your best friends to the mercy of the Blues, is it?  

The pound thing is just sour grapes. No reason why Scotland should be allowed to use it, but no reason why they shouldn't either. Unless an independent Scotland is going to be so bloody awful financially that it'll drag the currency down, I suppose.

Incredibly sad news about Robin Williams. Rest in peace, sir.

Yeah it's real sad that as he was brilliant

Really sad started seeing stuff on it about midnight on twitter about this has to be hoax then about a hour later finding out it all to real.

Oh, that's awful news. He was a major part of my childhood and a very talented, funny man.   

Aye a complete shock   if anything I hope this highlights the mental health issues people everywhere in all walks of life face on a daily basis & starts to get people talking about it more as staying silent about it doesn't help.

Not much to add that hasn't been said. Great actor, seemed genuinely nice, all the best for his family. Lots of my friends have admitted to suffering from mental problems, as have some public figures, so I think/hope that the stigma is becoming less of a thing.

Nice to see the media adhering to the Samaritans' suicide guidelines.  

Balladeer wrote:

Nice to see the media adhering to the Samaritans' suicide guidelines.  

Sales over human lives, that's the mass media way.   

I present the Treasurer of Australia ladies and gentlemen!  Please give a warm welcome to the wise sage Joe Hockey!

Spoiler:

Also the news about robin Williams was sad to hear, I'm one of the few folks who hasn't actually seen anything with him in but it's very clear the world lost a very special member of society and he will be missed.

Just wrote a letter to my Australian pen-friend, in which I laughed heartily at their politicians. It's either that or crying.

Athrun888 wrote:

Spoiler:

Same as ours, really. Welcome to politics!

Um.. Yeah I'm a poor person and I drive so uh yeah...

Athrun888 wrote:

Also the news about robin Williams was sad to hear, I'm one of the few folks who hasn't actually seen anything with him in but it's very clear the world lost a very special member of society and he will be missed.  

Mrs Doubtfire and Good Will Hunting are two of my favourite Robin Williams films - recommended!

shanks wrote:

Um.. Yeah I'm a poor person and I drive so uh yeah...

What? Maybe you're confused. Are you sure you're not walking?

I'm sure this will amuse some people here

Quote :

One Facebook user said: "It looks like a willy tee hee!!"

Beemoh, are you sure that wasn't you?

Quote :

"If it gets at least one more person down to the canal then it has worked."

Going down on a canal you say?

Today on ReferendumWatch.  Things to notice:

1. The layout of the banner.  For me, the "Yes" sign is partly cut-off, and our style of reading left-to-right means that we see the "No" first.  Stay neutral, BBC.
   
2. The first pro-indy quote, scrolling down the page, at time of typing:

Quote :

I strongly believe that "independence" is the greatest thing in the life of an individual and even a nation. This is the time - our opportunity. Don't be afraid of challenges that come up with changes, we will surmount them, such as the issue of currency or joining of EU. Our economy will not shrink but GROW because we have the resources [citation needed]. Don't entertain any word of fear from the "NO" campaign but believe in yourself as a Scot - "the industrious Scot". Together we will make Scotland a great nation.

i.e. exactly the sort of patriotic bluster that should not be the basis of the decision.

Both sides making me hate them again.  Sigh.

EDIT: This is pretty much my stance.